Micro Seiki, or TW AC-1

Pani's take on the Raven TT : "BUT, to me it had an artificiality/coloration in the flow of music. The notes did not naturally bloom, hold and decay the way we know it should. There is a "rush", a little too much leading edge and not enough time to bloom. There was also a colouration in the timbre of the instruments as if to artificially make it sound "rich"."

I hear things differently with the TW Raven One partnered with the 10.5 tonearm in my system. Varieties of strings, horns and woodwinds do not sound artificial, but very much like I hear them in live concerts. Double basses and cellos especially resound with marvelous tones. I've also never heard percussion instruments like piano and cymbals reproduced with as much accuracy as I presently do. There is richness and bloom as well, with neither of those characteristics sounding artificial to my ears. Regarding the assertion, "...there's a little too much leading edge...", that is an interesting point. Before I learned to make the proper kinds of adjustments to the 10.5 tonearm, I was indeed hearing too much leading edge. That arm is quite sensitive to very slight movements. I don't know if Pani had the opportunity to hear it coupled with any of the Raven tables he auditioned. Even if he did, it's possible it was not ideally adjusted for lps of various thicknesses. My experiences making adjustments with this arm, aided by markings I have affixed on pieces of painter's tape have enabled me to "dial in sounds" that run the gamut from too much leading edge to dull edge. Yes, I can get lps to display the kind of balance that to me is indeed accurate AND musical, UNLESS a particular record was simply recorded badly one way or another to begin with.

Jaspert's statement above bears repeating because it rings with an air of truth: "Seriously how can one tease out different turntables performance from the whole chain which involves different cartridges, arm,phono stage, pre/amp, speakers/room from listening to different setups at different times?" I would also re-iterate the need for experimenting with and making adjustments.

Someone has asked for a suggestion out here because he wants
to put his hard earned money into it, just like I did few
months ago. That is the reason I wrote as honestly as I
could what I heard with "reasonable" conviction.

However, it is interesting that more people out here want to
tell me I was wrong because of XYZ reasons. If one cannot
hear a TT's contribution in a chain of TT-Tonearm-Cartridge-
phonostage then I suppose there is no reason for audiophiles
to ever go for a TT demo, neither should dealers have any
demo room for TTs! I am not saying it is as simple as
auditioning a pair of speakers. But if one spends enough
time in the demo room and that too comparing three different
TTs and multiple tonearms, it is not all that difficult to
point out the characteristics which are glaring in a TT.

I commented strongly about the TW because it was one of the
serious contenders in my shortlist, I took multiple
auditions of it through multiple chain of electronics just
to ensure the validity of my concerns and it so happened
that the character that bothered me was too strong and
present. Even simple Norah Jones track sounded zippy. I even
took my AKG headphone setup to the dealer to clarify this.

In hifi equipment selection, isnt it as necessary to figure
out the compromises one could live with as it is to know the
strengths ? I am more concerned about construction and flow
of notes while someone else would bother about soundstage
construction or frequency extension. Why is it so difficult
to believe that TW had its own share of weaknesses which
occurred to me because I am more sensitive to it ?

Regarding Nottingham TTs, I did not say anything about it
because it is not a TT under discussion. It had other issues
due to which I did not buy it either but it did not exhibit
the problems I noted with TW. TW's problem was quite unique,
that is why I mentioned it the term "cooked".

I have no dog in this fight, other than that I'm sympatico with the OP because we share certain system attributes. I don't doubt Pani heard what he heard and will admit that the only time I've heard the AC table (I think it was the Black Knight) was courtesy of Jeff @ Highwater in show conditions. I think we'll all acknowledge that turntables at any level~ and here, we are talking about a pretty high level of performance~ will sound different from each other. My suggestion is that the OP contact Jeff when he is back from Rocky Mountain, and be candid about his interest in a used table. Take a trip to NY and hear the darn thing, presumably Jeff can set it up as well as anybody. (Ideally, he'd use a cartridge you are familiar with or willing to consider buying).
The Micro Seiki seems to be a little risky in trying to get support if you have problems, assuming the OP could source a good one without issues. The Platine- very cool table and one I'd certainly consider in this league if available in the States. It's been around a long time, and is still made.
Does that make sense? (I'm not encouraging abuse of a dealer here, which is why I suggested candor- Jeff, who I don't really know well, but have talked to a couple times, is one of the best folks in the business).

Let us address the myths espoused above -

I have a friend with a Micro Seiki. Wonderful table but it does need tweaking and labor - almost constantly. He has the table down well over 50% of the time as he waits for parts, etc. Finding parts are becoming an issue for him.

Utter rubbish - I know many micro owners from the 1500 up and they have run without issues for over 20 years.

I'm a little leary about heavily investing in a 25 y/o Micro Seiki, though they have a great reliability record, but with the company being defunct, one is left to a mercy of random suppliers, or DIY in case of malfunction

Replacing a motor and drive on a verdier or micro seiki is easier than trying to work through a direct drive motor board packed to the gunnels with obsolete chips.

my issue with them is the metal platter. the TW has a polymer platter that is warmer and faster that metal.

Poppycock - the speed of sound through solids is directly dependent on the Bulk Modulus and Shear Modulus. It is dependent on the stiffness, resistance to compression, and resistance to shearing. Polymers such as Delrin generally are significantly slower than metal.

TW's tried 150 different materials for the belt alone, just to get the sonic signature that he was looking for. you know that back in the '80's when micros were made, that didn't happen!

Thats because the Japanese did their homework and got it right first time. Do you realise the big micro's are thread drive, they dont use stretchy rubber bands like the Raven. They are far more speed stable. There is at least one member on this forum who dumped the top Raven Black Knight for a Micro.

Probably the biggest myth of all - "because I own it it must be good". This is the most common assumption on the forum.

My observations -
Dont own any of the above so I am not biased. I own a Final Audio Parthenon which I prefer to any of the above.
I have heard most of the decks mentioned, have 2 friends with SME 20's and one with Raven/Raven arm. Also have 2 friends with Technics SP10mk3's, 2 with L07D's.
The top 2 are as Syntax stated are the Platine Verdier ( when used with the ball insert option to ground the platter ) and the Micro Seiki 5000 - preferably with the ringy bell platter issue addressed. Either of these, provided they are well maintained and set up properly will stomp the Raven in speed, articulation, noise floor and provide a much more substantial foundation to the music. Both of them are legacy products that will last a lifetime and are easy to maintain.

Dear Maril555: +++++ " The reason, I want to make a change from DD TT to belt drive is just to try a different approach. " +++++

IMHO from that approach you can choose any decent BD alternatives out there and you will hear a different performance, not better but different.

MS is a " heavy " regarded unit in a wrong way because has no merits for it. It has a decent bearing with a decent Panasonic/Technics motor, power supply and control unit are very bad and needs to be rebuilded for it can achieve top performance, all its platters are way resonant and like all havy mass TTs ( vintage or toady units designs. ) are way colored because you can't control the heavy platter mass internal resonances when in movement. High mass TTs are very good for the " eyes " and for the audiophile " rookies " but not the best for real music lovers and persons that has a decent music sound knowledge level.

Your SP-10 could gives you a better performance in " naked " fashion, this is with out plinth.

I favor the Peterayer adivise on the SME 20/3 that even that is a BD design is not a heavy mass design and even that was not designed for the " eyes " has very good performance: accurate and neutral one, very low colorations. Same for the SME 30. These SME designs were always under-rated because are " ugly " to the eyes but IMHO are way better that almost all the units named here.

I think that sooner or latter we will learn that we have to pay for quality performance in TT and not like today where many people pay for: kilos/kilograms!!
Is here in audio high-end where the price of a kilogram of metal ( aluminum/steel and the like ) has a price higher of a kilogram of real gold!! Sometimes some of us shows or our ignorance or our stupidity or our wealthy status where no one of these characteristics has no relatrionship with quality music performance level trhough an audio system. Yes, as you see it I showed my ignorance on that subject because I own MS and HML BD designs that today I almost no use it often.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.