Direct drive vs belt vs rim vs idler arm


Is one TT type inherently better than another? I see the rim drive VPI praised in the forum as well as the old idler arm. I've only experienced a direct drive Denon and a belt driven VPI Classic.
rockyboy
This is the way of the turntable world: manufacturers have made their choices between hi and lo mass and hi and lo torque, and between direct-drive and belt-drive (and idler-drive). Then comes the technical justification for what each has done. Techdas, as you know, is by far not the first manufacturer to choose hi-mass platter combined with lo-torque motor. I think the first guys to go all the way with that were Lloyd Walker and David Fletcher (Nottingham Analog). The consortium in the American West that gave rise to Teres, Galibier, and Redpoint can also take some credit. It is merely up to us to listen and choose. Chronologically, I don't know where Final Audio fits; perhaps they were leaders too in implementing that idea. (Is "Techdas" coming from Dertonearm, by the way? I had not heard of this new brand, but I do know DT announced plans to bring a turntable to market, and he does preach very high mass/low torque.)

"The torque ripple or cogging torque will be lower"... I think a better way to put it is that the cogging of a motor spinning at 1800 rpm will occur at a higher frequency, for a given number of poles, and perhaps (really, perhaps) is less likely to be audible for that reason. But on the other hand, such a more rapidly spinning motor will be more likely to emit vibrations and noise, due to structural imperfections. Enter the belt-drive. Further, Kenwood, Pioneer Exclusive, Dual, and a few others back in the day used coreless motors to minimize if not eliminate totally the issue of cogging in their direct-drive turntables. Another wag on these pages or on VA has opined that cogging is essentially inaudible. I have no opinion on that.

Do you happen to know what is the rotational inertia of the L07D with the optional peripheral ring weight installed? I am using it with mine. Interestingly, when one uses the ring, one is also told to flip a switch on the outboard PS which I guess changes the servo so as to recognize the additional mass.

If you prefer your thread drive to any and all direct-drives you have ever heard, that is all well and good. I am sure it is superb. But I don't think you can prove from first principles that it is inherently superior to all direct drive.
I looked it up and now know Techdas is Japanese. "Techdas" sounded German to me.
Dover
With the many faults of analogue playback I'm guessing there would be few on these forums including those in the audio press that would debate stylus drag as a principal fault, but maybe I'm wrong.
Speaking for myself I think this is why experimenting with some vintage direct drives has started me on a better path to enjoying more from my records then ever before and at a fraction of the cost of my previous belt drive tables.

More on serious faults as you are well aware, another speed instability problem that grossly effects pitch is off centre spindle and worn holes which effects pretty much every record causing velocity changes.

:pitch rules:

These new fancy tables of today ,that is, the ones you would take a mortgage out on,.Do any of these new age designers tackled this problem. The wow from a off centre record can be significant, worst then a warped record.

A while ago one of these table manufactures put up a dramatic test on youtube I think, featuring several people rapping on the platform of his $150,000.00 ,less arm, table while it played! Anyone here ever witness Mich Cotter in one of his demonstration's doing basically the same thing............ 30 years ago.

Finally for those with a LO7D that want to use a Time line,you can easily fabricate a disk to fit over the spindle of the table and set in a second spindle that fits the hole of the timeline.
Dover,
Final Audio High inertia TT has a resistance to stylus drag variation 4 times higher than the SP10mk3 & Kenwood L07D
Yet you already admitted that you have to reset the speed on your Final Audio TT to accommodate for stylus drag?
So my test procedure was :
1. Set the speed with the KAB with no record playing.
2. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.
3. Reset the speed again with the KAB with the record playing tracking at 2g
4. Use the Timeline to validate the speed at both inner at outer grooves.
Now I'm reasonably happy about the need for belt-drive decks without monitored speed correction.....to be set up for 'stylus down' accuracy.
But I have yet to see (via video)......a belt-drive (even with massive inertia) pass the Timeline test with and without stylus in the groove?
I think you agree with that:-
I think your test methodology would prove that only turntables with error speed correction built in will pass. We know that stylus drag exists and should always set speed with the stylus playing.
So I'm not quite sure where you're going with this 'High Inertia' argument unless you can demonstrate differences in the effect of 'stylus drag'?

Regards
Dover, Perhaps SP10-mkIII has a foot in both camps for good reason...

^ Brady, Chris (2008-10-06). "Teres MicroPrecise Speed Technology PDF". Retrieved 2009-01-15. "Dealing with stylus drag is another important aspect of a quality turntable drive system. It would seem that the tiny forces exerted by the stylus would fade into insignificance. However, given our extraordinary sensitivity to micro speed variations, the uneven force from stylus drag is audible and degrades sound reproduction. With a microscopic view, loud passages slightly slow the platters rotation. Contrary to popular beliefs platter mass changes how stylus drag affects speed but does not counteract the effects of stylus drag. A massive platter will reduce the magnitude of the variation but extends it over a longer period of time. A light platter will conversely allow a larger speed variation but it enables more rapid recovery. Heavy vs. light platters exhibit quite different sounding degradations but they are still degradations. We find the longer shallower variations that result from a heavy platter to be more benign. However, there are others that prefer the degradations from a light platter. The point is that stylus drag causes degradations that are changed but not eliminated by platter mass. The only effective mechanism for truly reducing stylus drag effects is application of torque from the motor. Increasing the available motor torque makes stylus drag proportionately smaller and therefore will result in a net reduction in the effects of stylus drag. However, increasing torque usually will at the same time increase cogging. Once again we are back to the need of finding a balance between two competing objectives. To further complicate the situation a compliant coupling between the motor and platter reduces the motors ability to control platter speed. Any compliance between the motor and platter causes a delay in the delivery of torque. When a rubber belt is used additional torque from the motor will cause the belt to stretch. This energy will eventually be delivered to the platter but only after a time delay making it impossible for the motor to compensate for short term effects of stylus drag."

From this, as an analogy, a bit like a steam engine...applying the brakes did not slow it down sharply, only a little, but the lower speed stayed for longer...