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Cartridge gain overload - please explain

I am using a Lyra Delos on a JA Michell tecnodec, a Whest .30R phono stage,
an ARC LS25 linestage, ARC VT100 amp, and Rockport Mira Monitors.

I recently added the Whest to get more gain because the ARC PH3SE with 54dB was not enough, especially because the LS25 gives just 12dB of gain to single ended sources. By switching to the Whest, I was able to get more gain right from the phono stage, and also an additional 6dB from running balanced into the LS25.

Because I was coming in from a under-gain situation, I started with the Whest set to 66dB, thinking a bit more is good, and I could just turn the volume knob lower on the LS25. But there was that record pop / loud static discharge sound which was actually cartridge gain overload. When I changed the gain settings to 60dB, the problem ceased.

My question is, why does this happen? Whats wrong with an extra 6dB from the phonostage and just a little less output from the linestage to compensate? In my mind, that seems like it would work fine.

I would like to know more about this. Perhaps there will be even a benefit if I switch down to 55dB? But that seems counter intuitive, because I was getting too little gain before and I had to really ramp up the volume on the line stage, which caused a lot of noise.

thanks,
Mark
marktomaras
elizabeth
6,726 posts
 
Volume knob comment. Actually many preamps do best with the volume control somewhere near the 1 to 2 oclock position. So 12 to 3 is fine.
Usually really low volume control position should be avoided like 9 oclock...

I would comment on the overload in a stage of a component, but i am too fuzzy (at the moment) to be sure it would be correct. Though the previous comments are pretty good..
lewm
6,770 posts
 
There seems to be an underlying assumption that the Whest phono stage is a truly balanced device. It may have XLR input or output jacks, but I find no evidence anywhere to say it is balanced. For that matter, the same holds true for the ARC, altho in the latter case one can probably find out. Whest are so mysterious about their products that one can only go on the absence of a claim on their website, rather than on any real circuit description. Well, they do not claim that any of their products are balanced, so I am tending to think they are not. Ergo, subtract some db from your estimates.
almarg's avatar
almarg
8,673 posts
 
01-18-13: Lewm
There seems to be an underlying assumption that the Whest phono stage is a truly balanced device. It may have XLR input or output jacks, but I find no evidence anywhere to say it is balanced. For that matter, the same holds true for the ARC, altho in the latter case one can probably find out.
Hi Lew,

I don't think those assumptions are being made. What is being assumed, which seems to be consistent with both the OP's findings and the specs on the various components, is that changing from an unbalanced connection between an ARC PH3SE phono stage (which only provides unbalanced outputs) and an ARC LS25 line stage, to a balanced connection between the Whest phono stage and the same ARC LS25 line stage, results in a 6 db increase.

Given the LS25's gain spec, which (quoted verbatim) is ...
Gain -- Main Output: Selectable for each input: 18db, 12dB, 6dB Balanced output. (12dB, 6dB, 0dB SE output)
... that would seem to be within reason, regardless of whether or not any of the components have internally balanced signal paths.

Also, looking at the schematic for the LS25 (which is shown at the ARCDB link that John provided earlier), it does appear that it has a balanced internal signal path.

Best regards,
-- Al
dover
1,165 posts
 
I think somebody is confused here.
Using the balanced OUTPUT of the LS25 increases the gain by 6db.
I presume you plug the phono stage into the INPUT, at least I hope so.
There is nothing to suggest that using the balanced INPUT on the LS25 increases the gain.
Changing to a balanced INPUT on the LS25 does however increase maximum input from 14Volts to 28Volts which could give more headroom.

Funny thing is my old Quicksilver preamp could take 60volts up its jacksie on single ended before overload, and my 1960 Marantz 7 can take 30volts up its jacksie without overloading. I guess they dont make preamps like they use to.

The other thing I dont understand is that my Marantz 7 has 60db of TOTAL GAIN INCLUDING LINE STAGE and I can use a Koetsu with 0.4mV output with no noise and gain to spare. What has happened to modern tube preamp design - more noise, less gain and lower overload margins.
almarg's avatar
almarg
8,673 posts
 
01-18-13: Dover
I think somebody is confused here.
Using the balanced OUTPUT of the LS25 increases the gain by 6db.
I presume you plug the phono stage into the INPUT, at least I hope so.
There is nothing to suggest that using the balanced INPUT on the LS25 increases the gain.
Hi Dover,

What is confused is the wording of the spec, which is what led me to say that it was being "quoted verbatim." In one of my posts above, dated 1-14-13, I had said the following with regard to the interpretation of that spec:
My guess, and it is just a guess, is that the 18 db figure applies to the gain between a balanced input and a balanced output. If so, single-ended in to balanced out would be only 12 db at that setting.
If you study the first page of the schematic, I think you will conclude that what I have said is correct.

Best regards,
-- Al
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