Brinkmann vs TW Acustic

Dgad, as always, I am amused by questions like "does
live music have PRAT ?" !! The fundamental building
block of music is PRAT and dynamics. An instrument doesnt
create music, it only creates sounds. When those sounds are
played in certain "time" intervals, in a certain
"pattern" at a certain "speed" we call
it music. This is what people refer to as PRAT, is it so
complicated to make sense ? And you ask me whether Live
music has PRAT ? Live or Reproduced, music is made out of
PRAT and dynamics. Inaccuracy or inability to preserve any
of these is seriously detrimental to the realization of the
actual art that is embedded in the music one is listening.
You say some people love it, some like it and some
"outgrow" it!! To me, people who outgrow it are
basically people who have very less understanding of the art
of music and are mostly concerned about "sound".
They are typical audiophiles who care about the audiophile
aspects of sound and are in hifi only to experience that,
they are always after soundstage, which itself is an
artificial phenomenon which doesnt have any reference. I
agree that dynamics cannot be fully preserved because of
extreme limitations starting from the microphones, recording
tape and all the subsequent equipments in the recording
chain. But PRAT is a lot easier to preserve and most lo-fi
equipments actually preserve PRAT very well. Why do we start
losing it once we enter hifi is something to think about.

Regarding UK turntables, Linn, Rega, Roksan, Avid, SME,
combined sales of these turntables comprise of more than 85%
of "made in uk" TT sales around the world. All of
them keep the timing and pace very well. How big a
soundstage they create is trivial IMO.

Tdaudio,

part of my system consist of;

-MBL 101e
-Vac Statement 450 mono blocks
-Vac Sig MK2a pre with phono mm/mc
-Burmester 100 phono

Rauliruegas,

I'm not about to call out another TW owner specially when D and I have had many pleasant conversations back and forth over the years so but I owned TW three tables, have friends whom also own TW AC's and not one can hold an accurate speed using the TimeLine so go figure. I also wrote previously that I put money out of pocket and sent my controller unit back to Thomas and was told everything was fine.

Lewm, I can fully appreciate but have any of you guys actually owned and lived with both TW's AC3 and Black Knight tables and used a TimeLine on either to set-up the speed? Out of the one's posting "D" Dgad and I are the only ones.

Not one TW table that I have checked can hold such period which to me is just showing one flaw and only a part of it. Next time there is a TW at a show place a TimeLine on it and you will see but I would be shocked if such would be allowed.

When I had my Black Knight "gorgeous pce" I partially bought into the company along with what is wrote in the companies product manual and web site which anyone can view.

In reference to operating on battery and charge, the figures used were grossly misleading. I just checked the web site and it still says;

Run time on battery operation only: Approx. 20 hours.

Totally not true, I kept a log and it was on the average 8hrs on charge and ONLY 4-5 hours max when on battery mode and that's before and after with newly installed batteries.

So another flaw

Why have a controller that is both battery and charge, what are the sonic benefits? Say 20 hours approx on this little box alone is misleading so why market in such a way.

The pullies on the AC3 motors have issues, the 3 on the motor unit for the BK is just an odd design and the tolerance between the three is far from being precise. There are variances and if one just eye balls horizontally looking at the three pullies and belt can clearly see that belt goes up and down within this short distance which is then transferred to the platter over again and again. One would think this should be a clean transition with very tight tolerances but you can clearly see the vibration action happening. Really don't need to use one but use a magnifying glass looking at the belt movement and you will be amazed.

The footers, the threaded nipples that connect to the bass are inadequate. Upon fine tuning levelness the feet end up being wobbly and not firmly planted. Should not be like this on a table of it's cost factor, I can only imagine what really is going on there alone.

The $8-900 each arm board firstly is just a ridiculous price and not even one is included with a $40K plus table. How ridiculous is that, one has to have a arm board to mount a arm right. Due to the design and how the motor unit should be placed you need to use the BK arm board so the belt doesn't touch the arm board and is properly aligned with the spindle.

The controller does not allow fine tuning so one can not get the speed bang on, as Suteetat wrote above "Speed accuracy is always going to be a issue with TW, FAST OR SLOW" never mind with the needle planted and actually playing.

With the arm mounted and needle touching the record if you tap anywhere on the table or platform it's placed upon one can clearly hear a thud transferred through the speakers. Using the AC arm board which is solid brass I believe offers a different sound where as the BK is made of aluminum I believe.

This forum is for us to share information so that's exactly what I'm doing from my own personal experience.

Yes i'm sure you hear a pretty sound from your TW AC however my extended experience with my TW-AC2 was not a happy one.
Responding to a similar question a few years ago caused an exchange of private messages from happy TW owner that started out civil though ended with these happy TW members calling me names. Oh well, not so unusual I guess with "certain types".
My experience with this $17,000.00 table showed problems more so with play back of select vintage Lps.
I'm sure all is fine with Classic Rock, Pop and some of the modern re-issues of today, however.

My memory of the AC, play back was everything under glass, a lack of interplay , rhythmically compressed, no pulse and so on.
Like a cook that follows a recipe exactly though really has no feel or real passion to pull the dish off , it always turns out bland.
Why ?,,,, a table only supports the platter and tone arm with a motor to spin the record, how can this have so much influence on what I hear?
There are said many stated happy TW owners,as it turned out it reallly tells me nothing about the product itself, like movie box office receipts it says nothing of the movie itself.
For the price and level of performance I say no.

Pani, another thing about music and music reproduction is the sense that the sound source is something vibrating/resonating. A real thing. For example on an acoustic guitar after being struck the strings vibrate and the body of the guitar resonates along with the strings.

The thing about listening to vinyl that I love is that on decent to excellent recordings there is always that sense something is vibrating/resonating - musical instruments. And on good recordings it is instruments in space.

In contrast, red book CD does not give me that some sense.

That is not to minimize prat in any way. The goal for me is to have as much of everything that I can get and just enjoy the music that is there.