Brinkmann vs TW Acustic

Thuchan, I definitely would like to hear your view as well regarding Timeline. I am not denying that TW does not pass Timeline test. Syntax has been avoiding a direct question that I asked a couple of time but may be you could answer it then if you think I am blaming Timeline. Nowhere did I state that Timeline is inaccurate and it is definitely has less tolerance than Kab Strobe. However, it was proposed that TW problem is that it does not have adequate speed accuracy because it does not pass Timeline test eventhough it acheives speed accuracy within tolerance of Kab Strobe.
If this is true, wouldn't you say that most people who are listening to turntable before Timeline's invention are most likely not hearing proper speed either. How would you achieve speed precision on a turntable to the level of Timeline before it was invented. Was there any other way to calibrate turntable to such level. Even now, not everybody is using Timeline to calibrate their turntables. Is that mean that people with no Timeline are not hearing their turntable properly and are just as clueless as TW owner?
I tried Timeline on Micro Seiki SX-777 Air and compared its built in strobe to Timeline and it also failed Timeline test just like TW. Is that mean Micro Seiki is also worthless until Timeline comes along?

Do you think that the majority of records since its inception has been produced to the tolerance of Timeline's precision?

I don't deny precision of Timeline but question its real world's value. May be Syntax should start a holy war against Kab strobes and I assume most other strobes in general and preach that Timeline is the only acceptable tool but for some reasons, he seems to be keeping Timeline as a tool against TW only. I wonder why?

Downunder, I am using a Vibraplane under my SUSPENDED SME 30/12 and it makes a very positive improvement. I'm sure it would do the same for UNsuspended turntables like the TW Acustic.

Suteetat, I watched a Timeline demonstration in which the speed was shown to be accurate when the Timeline red dot was on the wall 12" behind the table. As soon as the dot was moved to a surface four feet away, it was no longer accurate. When we discuss the Timeline, I strongly feel that some standard conditions for using the device are agreed upon and followed. I can't afford the Timeline, so I use a KAB strobe disk.

Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation.

Dear Dev: These are statements you posted through the thread where you stated that " seep accuracy " issue:

" I'm sorry but to me if you own a table and it can't hold an accurate speed it's flawed, no matter what else you do latter really doesn't matter because the speed needs to be accurate. "

" it wasn't just because not being able to produce ACCURATE SPEED.

," have friends whom also own TW AC's and not one can hold an accurate speed using the TimeLine so go figure. "

" any of you guys actually owned and lived with both TW's AC3 and Black Knight tables and used a TimeLine on either to set-up the speed? "

" The controller does not allow fine tuning so one can not get the speed bang on "

" Dgad mentioned his table now is locked in on the 33.3 speed "

" Then you have others that feel one can't hear the difference if the speed is not locked in and try to discredit, for the life of me just makes me laugh. "

" when I was addressing the issue with my controller and not being able to keep an accurate speed and what I was hearing "

all those information came from 8 different posts.

I asked which was value/quantity of the TT speed deviations, example: from 33.333 to 33.37 or to 33.28 rpm or what ever and till now you did not give us an answer. You always talked on non speed accuracy but seems to me with out knowing what we are talking about: how higher was that TW speed deviation, even you don't speak if that deviation was a constant one or if it has short term fluctuations.

IMHO speak of speed inacuracies is not a fact but to know which kind of speed deviaitions we have: this means we need to measure it if not why are you using the Timeline as the tool to state the TW speed accuracy?

I'm not questioning your very high sensitivity to tiny changes on TW speed, good that you have it. What I'm trying to figure is what in a hell you was hearing on your TW TTs because that tiny speed deviations when before you owned the TW TT probably you already had with your other TTs?

Your main subject is: non accurate speed, fine. I posted that there is no single audio item that's perfect and that all audio items have some kind of virtues and some defects. I posted too that you never mentioned not even one TW virtue and my question is:

is so bad that has not a single performance virtue?, if from your point of view it has some virtues: why did not mentioned?, could you?

The other subject is that you put 90% of the TW culprit to that non accurate speed and that could be a little unfair because TT speed accuracy is only one factor/parameter involved on the whole quality performance level, there are " hundred " of factors ( other than speed. ) that could be easily the culprit of your dissatisfaction on what you heard it.

In the other side, you are talking of " accuracy " when your system goes around non-accurate tube technology trhough the system electronics even at phono stage. IMHO you have more unaccuracies there than on that TW speed deviations ( that today we don't know about the " magnitude " you are blamed it. ).

No I don't want to open the tube technology subject and please don't open it: you only can lose with.

Peterayer posted:

" Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. "

yes some one of us could be even more sensitive than musicians/composers and the like of speed deviations and I'm glad to know that you are one of those priviliged audiophiles.

++" In the end as long as you are enjoying what ever it may be that's all that matters " ++++++

Agree with you.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Regarding pitch control: SME turntables and many other belt drive turntables are criticized for not being speed accurate. There are at least five top classical conductors and 10-20 professional musicians in Europe who own SME tables and the dealer from whom they bought their tables recently told me that not one has ever complained about the his table having pitch problems. And this is a group of owners who know how music sounds. I just think that is an interesting observation.

I can't say anything about SME and speed but you find for everything a matching example. May I tell you a little story, it is a bit different, but in a way comparable. A few years ago I was in a group of BMW M5 drivers, some were really fanatic (not me, they were worse), they read the test reports about the car in the car mags (acceleration and so on ). went on the highway in the night and drove all those tests with their own cars...
All were slower. Far away from the test specs...They went to their car dealer who said "Hey, we sold now 50 of them and you are the only ones who are critical.." and shut the door. They didn't accept that, they went with their cars on the dyne for a test ride. At 100mph the engine stopped accelerating. there was an internal program in the car software that "knew" that someone wants to know how many HP the engine has (not all wheels rolling). Normally that story was done. But, they went to a Dyno Manufacturer who also delivered BMW / MB / Porsche and they knew the programming :-) Long story short:
None of those cars had the HP in reality. They went back to their dealer and said, Buddy, we paid for 408 HP and we got 360, max. speed lacks for 15%...acceleration is 1 s slower.... And don't try to tell us some stories, here are the reports and when you don't believe us, then bring us the M5 which was used in the mags for the tests...
Anyway... these guys ALL won, they all got new engines.
The other 45 not.

Suteetat,
I use Timeline, Allnic Strobe, Kuzma on my tables. Timeline is by far the most accurate but also very difficult to reach strobe. I wouldn't say that small deviations with the Timeline mean in any case that the table is not working precisely. But if you go for absolut speed control - and we know this is only one parameter - Timeline is by far the best.
I have tested eg. my Micros (SX 8000 and SX 8000 II) with the Timeline. When using the VPI SPS in my flywheel configuration I can reach a stable flashing on one spot.

Proper speed is not an issue of if you are using Timeline or not. I learned that turntable design always concentrated on this important parameter reaching accurat speed or not. Nevertheless I got to known a guy who loved his benchmark system while playing his table with far too slow speed. But he loved this sound. So how should we comment? People sometimes love their systems not knowing what they are doing maybe and like in the dark ages of our history if you tell them they need starting corrections they offend.