directional cables?

Jea, yes, the charge is vibrating back and forth with the electrons.

Charge is not current. Electric current is the movement of charge like current in a river is the movement of water. It makes sense to use current with DC since the charges are indeed flowing like a river albeit a very slow river, but as you may have noticed it can cause some confusion when dealing with what we call AC.

Current does not flow. That would mean there is some substance called current that is moving. Since current is the flow of charges if you say electric current flow that literally means a flowing flow of charges. That is another reason why alternating current flow is not correct. It means an alternating movement of a flowing flow of charges. We all know what somebody means when they say AC current but it is literally incorrect. That is why the phrase AC current is confusing. When you here the word current you automatically think about the water flowing in a river and what we call AC doesn't act that way. Hey, that sounds familiar.

Jea, I'm not sure what you are trying to get at with the scope question. The vertical position of the beam is proportional to the difference of potential between the tip of the probe and the scope ground. Since that difference is constantly changing we see the trace go up and down as it moves across the screen.. Perhaps you could elaborate on your point.

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Q, your turn.

I believe I did answer those questions but it really isn't germane to the debate. You can ask me if the moon is made of cheese but unless it addresses the original point of contention it doesn't pertain. I will answer again to appease you.

I said your battery-switch system describes a system of periodic motion. So yes and yes, as long as you keep flipping the switch it flows back and forth. It effectively is vibrating slowly about a fixed point. So do your 2 questions pertain to the debate? No. Your questions merely confirm what we've already agreed on. There has been absolutely no debate over whether or not the electrons are going back and forth. We agree completely on this point.

Here is the original position that you said was wrong.

AC current flow is not an accurate description of the situation. Even though it is commonly used it is literally incorrect

I proved that flow means "moving in a single definite direction." Substituting that phrase for the word flow amd knowing that current is the movement of charges we get "AC movement of charges moving in a single definite direction".. It is not. You can correctly say it is charges moving back and forth or you can correctly say there is no net movement of charge but you cannot correctly say it is charges moving in a single direction.

Let's go over that again, it is the crux of your misunderstanding. That phrase says the current is moving in a single definite direction. We both agree it is not, we both agree it is just sitting there going back and forth, yet you insist the phrase is literally correct.

You have an interesting debate style. Every time I prove you are wrong you don't respond, you just drop it and move off in another direction.

I proved your idea that the AC current from power plant to the home was like water through a hose was wrong.
I proved your ideas that EM waves couldn’t exist without electrons was wrong.
I proved your idea that there is no EM wave on an open ended cable was wrong.
I proved your idea about open ended cables having no current was wrong.
I proved your definition for current described a single direction, not back and forth as you insisted.
I proved that my example of RF and transmission lines is applicable to AF after you declared it was not.
I proved your idea about definite direction was wrong.
I proved you can’t logically use flow to describe back and forth without a qualifier like ebb and flow even though you insisted you could.
I proved your examples of alternating flow were not periodic and therefore not related.
I proved your battery-switch was periodic and the description of it could only use flow if it included a qualifier that talked about back and forth.

Good grief man, all of that and not a single time you admit you were wrong? I must say I do admire your tenacity after all of those beat downs. You are like the Black Knight when he fights King Arthur.

Black Knight (Q) vs. King Arthur (Herman)

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Jea, yes, the charge is vibrating back and forth with the electrons.

Charge is not current. Electric current is the movement of charge......
05-26-10: Herman

Does the charge change state as it vibrates back and forth?
+ - + - and so forth?

I assume if the frequency is 60 Hz the charge changes state 120 times per second, one cycle.
Base line 0 + 0 - 0, one cycle.

If electric current is the movement of charge what is wrong with using the word current in place of the word charge?

With the load consuming power from the supplying alternating voltage source explain the process movement of current to the load.

Herman

So yes and yes, as long as you keep flipping the switch it flows back and forth.

Ok.

So you agree that when I flip the switch one way for 10 seconds, there is "current" "flowing." And if I flip it the other way for ten seconds, there is also "current" "flowing."

Ok.

Next question.

When I flip the switch one way, the current flows in one direction. When I flip it the other way, it flows in a direction opposite the first.

Is this "current" that's "flowing" not also "alternating" with respect to direction?

Don't waste your time with a 200 word reply. A simple yes or no is all that's necessary.

Jea, There are positive and negative charges and they are what they are. They do not change from positive to negative. In the case of a wire there are negative charges in motion but in some mediums there are + charges in motion and in some there are both.

So it isn't + 0 - 0 + 0 - as in the charges are changing polarity it is L 0 R 0 L 0 as in the negative charges are vibrating left and right around a zero point.

If electric current is the movement of charge what is wrong with using the word current in place of the word charge?

Any place you see "current" you can substitute "movement of charge." If you say movement of current you are saying movement of movement of charge. It is redundant.

Look at it this way. In order for something to move it must exist. Current is not a thing or a form of energy, it is a word that describes movement. If water stops flowing the water is still there but there is no current. Did the current just disappear? No, it never existed, it is a concept, not a thing.

With the load consuming power from the supplying alternating voltage source explain the process movement of current to the load.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for asking. That question is a perfect example of why "alternating current flow" is a very bad description of what is going on.

In a nutshell AC current does not move or flow to the load.. That is the very heart of my debate with simply_q.

As stated above current does not move. Current means something is moving. If we switch to charge instead of current then those don't move to the load either. The charges in an AC circuit merely sit there and vibrate.

Power isn't moving to the load either. Power is the rate at which we transfer energy. Power is not a thing, it is not energy, it cannot be moved or consumed.

So what's moving from the source to the load? Energy. A wave of electromagnetic energy moves down the wire and the energy in it is transferred to the load. Charges are vibrating everywhere around the path but energy is flowing in one direction...source to load. It is converted into another form of energy like heat or light, or motion, or it is launched into space if the load is an antenna.

So there you go Q, the debate has come full circle. I kicked this off by saying it was a bad idea to use that phrase because it confused people and did not describe what was happening. Most people will tell you it means current is flowing to the load just like Jea.

You can word play and try to say that vibrating electrons is what alternating current means but you know as well as I do that isn't true. If you conduct a survey the vast majority of people will incorrectly tell you that AC current flows along the wire to the load just like Jea did. Your example with the switch has nothing to do with the common meaning of the phrase so it deserves no more attention. You can't seriously continue in that vein.

Scene from the holy grail after Arthur has chopped off both of the Black Knight's arms

Arthur ...... Look you stupid bastard, you've got no arms left

Black Knight ....... Yes I have

Arthur ....... LOOK!! (pointing to his obvious lack of arms)

Black Knight ...... Just a flesh wound.

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