Do powercords make a difference in sound?

Bryon, as usual, quite logical and concise discussion. I made the statement regarding chintzy people and those without desire to work at it due to the sheer abundance of times these issues arise, not to infer that you or Al are pegged as one or the other. I do not mean to be offensive in any way. :)

I have to laugh; last night I watched 'Shark Tank' and in one segment a belt buckle manufacturer was called a pig (greedy) by one shark and another suggested he was lying about his sales. So, one shark concludes of the man, "So, he's a liar and a pig!" The man stood there stunned; it was them labeling him then reinforcing the label! So, Bryan, if you feel I've labeled you, my apologies. As you demonstrate, you're not chintzy with cables. :)

Ironically, I used to pride myself on my chintziness as an audiophile. I would go down to the local high end store where I had the nickname "The Bottom Feeder" (as in aquarium fish) because I sought super-economical cast offs from others. I wouldn't have dreamed of spending serious money for cables. It was only comparisons, and later, comparisons of entire sets, which utterly changed by perspective. Talk did nothing to sway me; only experience mattered. You must admit, there are a lot of audiophiles like that - and no, I'm not insinuating you are one! I find it ironic that there are other audiophiles for which talk/discussion is the final arbiter of the 'truth' of cables, even though simple comparison is quite easy. :)

If you are seeking controlled experiements I'll not be offering them for you. My position is that the difference sonically between cables in order to be efficacious must be so great that a controlled experiment is not necessary. If I cannot (or others in the room with me) can't hear the distinction, if we have to strain to hear a difference, or can't hear a difference immediatetly then the cable, preamp, etc. fails instantly. Above all, in this matter the result has to be practical; I am not into chasing marginal improvements in a rig. Similarly, to ascertain if a cable is 'carrying' its sonic properties the effect has to be so evident, so obvious that one would easily conclude the cable to be influencing the rig with it's sonic properties.

Perhaps the analogy of a sunset would help here. While not measuring but simply observing the sunset one can say with certainty that the sky five minutes after the last observation has changed. Does the person have "data" for that obseveration? No. Are they wrong? No. Clearly, observational experience is all that is necessary to determine a valid argument and conclusion. Now if I told you about it would you demand data from me to believe it? Why do we accept observations in one setting but not in another? (No need to answer; it's a hypothetical question pointing out that for the individual observation can be plenty adequate to be convincing of 'reality').

What if one were to look at the sky five seconds later? Or perhaps one minute later? Would the sky look different? Much more unlikely. I would equate looking at the sky five seconds later to hearing a set of cables which are similar in design/sound. In that case the proposed upgrade would be a fail in terms of the Law of Efficacy. The change has to be dramatic, like looking at the sky five minutes later, every bit as powerful/dramatic as a component change. One wire on its own typically can't do that, but a set can.

I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result. I do not wish to share that information at this time. I've spent a lot of time on cables and teasing out their practical application in systems!

This is what I am doing, taking listening "measurements" with different conditions. My observations have held without exception; EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.

I am fairly adamant that this friendly debate cannot be settled apart from testing sets of cables. The entire premise that a cable carries intrinsic sound properties is impossible to conclude based upon mixing them. If you stick a cable in one mix and move it to another mix what have you done? Nothing with certainty! What you have done is reinforce the false notion that cables have no consistent sound! Hundreds of audiophiles do this and reach the wrong conclusion!

Only by hearing sets and hearing them transferred to different equipment as compared to another set will reveal clearly that a cable's intrinsic properties travel with it.

a cables intrinsic attributes can be impacted by the other components of a stereo system. for example, suppose, a power cord has an audible peak in the treble. bring that power cord to a system consisting of classic tube electronics and a speaker which may be attenuated in the treble. the character of the cable may be obscured.

if a stereo system is relatively uncolored and reasonably resolved, then the character of any component is relatively easy to discern. if a stereo system has some (egregious) or observable coloration it will be harder to identify the sonic nature of a component.

Douglas - Thank you for your thoughtful and kind response. It's difficult to advocate a view in the face of opposition while remaining a gentleman. Thank you for doing that.

I have tested enough sets of cables to determine a correlation between the build of cables and the expected sonic result… EVERY cable set I have ever used (Jena Labs, Magnan Cables, Tara Labs, MIT, Wireworld, Clarity Cables - to name some of those reviewed) and others I experimented with on my own inclduing XLO, Audioquest, Harmonic Technology and others - heard in sets always carried consistent sonic attributes to whatever gear they were connected.

This observation is actually easier for me to believe than some of the other observations that have been made on this thread, and it highlights the need to distinguish the following two views…

(1) SETS of power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different SYSTEMS.

(2) INDIVIDUAL power cables have consistent audible characteristics across different COMPONENTS within the same system.

For whatever reason, (1) is easier for me to believe than (2). Maybe that is nothing more than a prejudice on my part.

It’s clear from the passage I quoted above that, in your experience, (1) is true. I am interested to hear whether, in your experience, (2) is also true. In other words…

Let’s say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?

bc

hi byron:

i believe if you change the amp using the same cord, the roll off may disappear. if it doesn't, it suggests the cord may have a problem. you can't know what is causing the roll off until you co vary the power cord and amp.

a thorough logical analysis is required when you have two variables to look at.

Bryan, some great thoughts which show you are open-minded about all of this as well as able to think critically.

Your question in regard to the distinction between systems and components is a good one. My answer is that in general, yes, a specific cord does retain its properties no matter the component it is attached to. It will be influenced differently by the component, but it will still exhibit the same characteristics which result because of its design/construction. Such a conclusion becomes evident when comparing entire sets of cables. As one PC at a time is swapped out the effect of it is heard across the sound of the system. Conducting the incremental testing twice, once with each set of cables, shows clearly what the influence of the particular brand will be.

You will not get the identical result when you move the PC from the amp to the pre or source; there will be fine gradations, or permutations, of a similar sound. However, consistently, when compared individually to a different PC put through the same paces, yes the characteristics of that power cord will remain the same. The alternative PC will also retain its characteristics as it is put on amp, pre, or source.

However, since doing so will alter the sound it becomes impossible for a person who has mixed cords to realize this! That is why I insist that the only way to determine that cables carry their particular character to all components is by enlisting an entire suite of them and comparing to a different suite of cables.

Regarding your specific question: Let’s say you put a new power cable on your amp and notice that the bass has become rolled off, or bloated, or less pitch defined, or whatever. Would you then expect that power cable to have the SAME effect on the system when placed on the preamp or the source?

The answer is no one knows if it will or will not if a mixed set of cables is being used, i.e. if that particular power cable is swapped with the one on the pre/source. I have found the result of mixed cables swapping to be fairly unpredictable. If, however, an entire set of cables is being used and the noted effect of a particular cable is a roll off of bass, and you have noted this on several components such as tube amps/SS amps, sources, preamps, then yes, you might expect more of the same when additional cables are inserted.

The effect of a cable is compounded when additional ones of the same brand/type are inserted. That also has been consistent in my casual testing over the years. If a cable rolls off the spectrum on the ends, it becomes more evident that it is doing so the more pieces are added to the rig. Conversely, if a cable brings additional definition, adding more of them will bring increased definition.

My position is that cables are not "captive" (pun!) sonically to the component which they are servicing, that is they do not entirely take on the character of that component. There is a particular sonic "flavor" which travels with them to whatever component is being serviced.
I have confirmed this using both different brands of cables and different models of the same brand of cables, be they PC, IC or SC, as well as digital coax.

I have concluded the reason audiophiles do not discover such things is that typically they do not conduct thorough enough investigation through comparisons and/or have been using mixed cables, which negates the entire excercise.