Corazon, you are also contributing well to the discussion, thank you.
Here are your answers based on my experiences with comparing sets of cables:
#1 Absolutely cables' sound ARE influenced by a myriad of system variables. I am not taking the position that such things as input or output impedance, etc. don't effect cables.
At the same time, I am insisting that the cables' own nature/build dictates sonic attributes which it brings to the system, and that these attributes are fixed, not variable.
#2-3 Now, the cable will sound different from system to system. However, the qualities which the cable possesses will also be easily identified, especially when compared to another set which one is familiar with. i.e. a "dull" sounding cable will sound dull with all electronics in comparison to a cable which sounds bright and detailed with all electronics. One does not obtain this knowledge from mixing cables, only from using complete sets in comparison. Obviously, if one is mixing cables and inserting new ones here and there assurance of the sound of the cable is impossible.
For that reason, Mrtennis' suggestion to switch into the mix a new amp is useless. One has no certainty that the amp is not causing the roll off in bass. The only way to gain certainty is by using complete sets of cables from one manufacturer.
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? I find the argument that there is no fixed sound to a cable quite intellectually faulty. A person, it seems, arrives at that conclusion from theory perhaps, but listening comparisons do not support that theory. I believe that actual comparison would quite handily convince someone that cables do present their own properties which are integral to them.
#4 I am also leading to the conclusion that a set of cables with preferred properties sonically will yield a predictable result, a desired result. One cable will bring a certain degree of those sonic properties, but a set will amplify them. When one finds a favored cable, that set of cables can be used to transfer those properties onto ANY system. This is precisely what cable manufacturers are claiming their cables can do. Yet it seems so many audiophiles simply ignore that claim and mix the cables, thereby destroying/mitigating any possibility of discovering the particular qualities the manufacturer intended!
Corazon, you say in #5. "I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?" Yup. Precisely. But remember, my position is that blind tests are not even needed! The difference is SO apparent that if one said they needed a blind test I would consider their hearing suspect.
#6 Yes, why chase marginal "improvements"?
Hopefully my ruminations will get some people to reconsider their position on cabling and on how to approach cables as a component. Remember, I was vociferously assured that I was right when I held the opinion that 1. Cables were not that big a deal, and 2. One did not have to work with matched sets. I was wrong on both counts, and cables handled properly have been a crucial element of creating superior sounding systems.
Finally, Corazon, I quote your thought, "Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective." That can change. Just start culling cables and comparing; you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to reinforce that Al and Bryon's points are cogent, their logic compelling. However, compelling logic does not determine the outcome of listening tests. Remember that even though I do not have the engineering background to argue from theory, my position is defensible by the fact that there are actual/physical changes between the cables/sets being compared. The decision one must make is whether or not such differences in cables can yield audibly discernible differences. On the one hand are people who have not tested it and said, "No, it cannot." On the other hand I stand - and I have tested it, and of course say, "Yes, it does!"
Now, if the others wish to conduct the simple listening tests/comparisons between sets and then return and state that their informal tests supported the theory that cable geometry, dielectric, conductor material, total gauge, etc. has no bearing on the sound of a cable when transferred between components, I would be happy to hear about it.
But to simply say, "I don't think it will have an influence," when physical differences exist between cables, and I have tested and found there to be sonic differences; well, I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by such logic. :)
I am saying the others are mistaken, but politely so! ;)
Survey: How many of you have conducted comparisons between a few sets of cables? What was your conclusion? I think it would be very telling if these people chimed in. My guess is that very few have done so, perhaps even very few dealers, distributors or manufacturers. This is likely why there are often a couple of zealous persons arguing my perspective while so many take the opposite viewpoint. I believe the vast majority of audiophiles have never dealt with complete sets of cables in comparison. It's costly (at least temporarily) and time consuming to do so. It's so much easier to conclude, "It's not that big of a deal..." But it IS.
How big of a deal is it? I never had a system yielding complete satisfaction when listening to it until I got serious about working with sets of cables. I would encourage audiophiles who consider themselves "extreme" or serious enthusiasts to pursue the comparison of sets of cables. I have found it to be a terrifically rewarding activity.
I discuss some similar principles in my Audiophile Laws which are published on Dagogo.com. They can be found in the "Columns" section of the website. Some may seem controversial or counter-intuitive, however they are all based on practical considerations and actual informal testing, not just theory. In other words, they work. :)
Here are your answers based on my experiences with comparing sets of cables:
#1 Absolutely cables' sound ARE influenced by a myriad of system variables. I am not taking the position that such things as input or output impedance, etc. don't effect cables.
At the same time, I am insisting that the cables' own nature/build dictates sonic attributes which it brings to the system, and that these attributes are fixed, not variable.
#2-3 Now, the cable will sound different from system to system. However, the qualities which the cable possesses will also be easily identified, especially when compared to another set which one is familiar with. i.e. a "dull" sounding cable will sound dull with all electronics in comparison to a cable which sounds bright and detailed with all electronics. One does not obtain this knowledge from mixing cables, only from using complete sets in comparison. Obviously, if one is mixing cables and inserting new ones here and there assurance of the sound of the cable is impossible.
For that reason, Mrtennis' suggestion to switch into the mix a new amp is useless. One has no certainty that the amp is not causing the roll off in bass. The only way to gain certainty is by using complete sets of cables from one manufacturer.
Why are people in this discussion acting as though cables have infinitely flexible characteristics? I find the argument that there is no fixed sound to a cable quite intellectually faulty. A person, it seems, arrives at that conclusion from theory perhaps, but listening comparisons do not support that theory. I believe that actual comparison would quite handily convince someone that cables do present their own properties which are integral to them.
#4 I am also leading to the conclusion that a set of cables with preferred properties sonically will yield a predictable result, a desired result. One cable will bring a certain degree of those sonic properties, but a set will amplify them. When one finds a favored cable, that set of cables can be used to transfer those properties onto ANY system. This is precisely what cable manufacturers are claiming their cables can do. Yet it seems so many audiophiles simply ignore that claim and mix the cables, thereby destroying/mitigating any possibility of discovering the particular qualities the manufacturer intended!
Corazon, you say in #5. "I wonder, if a person experiences or expects certain attributes from a product, wouldn't they be inclined to expect it wherever it may be installed? Especially if it is not a blind test? Is this not an argument made by some in the trade mags?" Yup. Precisely. But remember, my position is that blind tests are not even needed! The difference is SO apparent that if one said they needed a blind test I would consider their hearing suspect.
#6 Yes, why chase marginal "improvements"?
Hopefully my ruminations will get some people to reconsider their position on cabling and on how to approach cables as a component. Remember, I was vociferously assured that I was right when I held the opinion that 1. Cables were not that big a deal, and 2. One did not have to work with matched sets. I was wrong on both counts, and cables handled properly have been a crucial element of creating superior sounding systems.
Finally, Corazon, I quote your thought, "Neither am I in a position to offer arguments supporting any side, objective or subjective." That can change. Just start culling cables and comparing; you'll see what I'm talking about. I want to reinforce that Al and Bryon's points are cogent, their logic compelling. However, compelling logic does not determine the outcome of listening tests. Remember that even though I do not have the engineering background to argue from theory, my position is defensible by the fact that there are actual/physical changes between the cables/sets being compared. The decision one must make is whether or not such differences in cables can yield audibly discernible differences. On the one hand are people who have not tested it and said, "No, it cannot." On the other hand I stand - and I have tested it, and of course say, "Yes, it does!"
Now, if the others wish to conduct the simple listening tests/comparisons between sets and then return and state that their informal tests supported the theory that cable geometry, dielectric, conductor material, total gauge, etc. has no bearing on the sound of a cable when transferred between components, I would be happy to hear about it.
But to simply say, "I don't think it will have an influence," when physical differences exist between cables, and I have tested and found there to be sonic differences; well, I'm sorry, but I'm not impressed by such logic. :)
I am saying the others are mistaken, but politely so! ;)
Survey: How many of you have conducted comparisons between a few sets of cables? What was your conclusion? I think it would be very telling if these people chimed in. My guess is that very few have done so, perhaps even very few dealers, distributors or manufacturers. This is likely why there are often a couple of zealous persons arguing my perspective while so many take the opposite viewpoint. I believe the vast majority of audiophiles have never dealt with complete sets of cables in comparison. It's costly (at least temporarily) and time consuming to do so. It's so much easier to conclude, "It's not that big of a deal..." But it IS.
How big of a deal is it? I never had a system yielding complete satisfaction when listening to it until I got serious about working with sets of cables. I would encourage audiophiles who consider themselves "extreme" or serious enthusiasts to pursue the comparison of sets of cables. I have found it to be a terrifically rewarding activity.
I discuss some similar principles in my Audiophile Laws which are published on Dagogo.com. They can be found in the "Columns" section of the website. Some may seem controversial or counter-intuitive, however they are all based on practical considerations and actual informal testing, not just theory. In other words, they work. :)
