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SS versus Tubes

Boy is this an old topic. But everyone seems to approach it from a "ss sucks" or "tubes suck" perspective. And the solid state guys argue the tube guys just like distortion because there is demonstrably more of it with tubes. So, musing on this I got out my ss amp and my tube monos and spent some time figuring out exactly why I preferred tubes (couple of weeks actually). Hopefully this will be taken as a thread trying to explore the differences, not an attempt on my part to put the case for tubes. Here goes.

Playing with the two amps I was struck by the fact that I liked both but how utterly different they were. But to keep this post short, it did finally click for me. In an objective sense (although not objective at all in the minds of the measurement freaks) I could catalogue a longer list of things that were right about the ss amp than I could for the tube amps. Interesting. So why did I like the tubes? The only way I can describe it is this (once again, for brevity).

With the solid state amp, it was a little like watching a special effects movie - I enjoyed listening to the ss amp, and lots of interesting stuff was going on - open fast detailed, dynamic - but I was never once fooled into believing it was real!!!!! (Forget about the rubish about "tube-like" mids on a ss amp. They can be warm and smooth but they are never the same as tubes.)

And that was what was different about the tubes. Unlike the solid state which sounded like a facsimile of the real thing, with the tubes it was like "inside" somewhere in what I was hearing there were sounds that sounded real. With the tube amp I could listen through the distortion and crud and say to myself "I am listening to Ella, right here and right now". That for me is the "goose bumps" moment, and beats a special effects movie any day. I did not need an oscilloscope to tell me the tube amp was more distorted, and NO, I did not like the distortion I could identify. I enjoyed the thrill of "near reality" that was never achieved with the ss amp.

Am I arguing that the tube amp was more accurate at what counts for me? No, because I don't know if that is what causes the effect. If reality is coffee with one sugar, ss amps may be coffee without the sugar, and tubes may be coffee with artificial sweetener. So what makes tubes do that extra thing may well be an additive distortion, and by all objective measurements the ss amp is closer to the real thing. Then again it may be that tubes leave some of the sugar in the coffee. Which of these it might be is interesting, but frankly, just academic if I am to decide which amp stays in my system.

I reckon I go for tubes because I like vocal music that gives the vocalist room to work in. So that midrange has to be magical - just like the real thing is. If I listened to other forms of music more, then I can think of lots of reasons why the ss amp might be preferred.

I am interested in other thoughts from either side of the fence, but please, if all you have to say is "ss sucks" or "tubes suck", please don't - it has already been said and fails to enlighten anyone.
redkiwi
lshreve
20 posts
 
This is pretty much a Coke/Pepsi thing. Each format has design strengths as well as weaknesses...and most of those have been covered well in the previous threads and this post. In the final analysis it all comes down to personal preferences...as does 99% of all audio purchases. We all tend to listen to the music we like...and then rave about what makes it sound the best to "us". I have had many amps, both SS and tube, over the years, and now keep both handy...ready to play at the flick of a switch. "Some nights... burnt saxaphone just dosen't feel right"
We have invented machinery to measure the performance of our machines and tell us what we should like to listen to...all at the same time, forgetting that most likely no two ears on the planet, including those on either side of our own heads, hear things in exactly the same way.

Bottom line...the "ultimate truth" is: "They're ain't no untimate truth!"
garfish
1,840 posts
 
Hi Redkiwi; nicely stated post. Last fall I purchased a well known 110 wpc tube amp ($5K list) and listened with it in my system for nearly a month. This amp had very nice mid-range and treble, but no more than acceptable bass. The amp was the same brand as my tube pre-amp.

When I finally put my SS amp ($5K list) back in my system and played some rockin' music I got a big grin on my face, and next day listed the tube amp for sale. Why? More than anything else music had greatly superior pace, rhythm, and timing with the SS amp. And of course a significant part of PRT is good quality-- make that excellent quality bass, which the SS amp provided easily and the tube amp could not approach. Also, in the case of this particular tube amp, it had to be played at a louder level to sound good, but I suspect that is a brand/model specific thing.

My SS amp also has a great mid-range and more detail than the tube amp. And the SS amp could be played at lower volume and still sound great. Note: I don't think I'd be willing to give up my tube pre-amp. Cheers. Craig
jcbtubes
400 posts
 
In general, I think we should clarify something for the uninitiated or novice tube follower. Tube products don't have to be round or blunted in dynamics, or bloated and ill-defined in the bass. I've never liked the "old tube sound". Actually, all of the tube units that I own are just the opposite. It is precisely their dynamics and swacky, punchy, articulate mid and upper bass that helps contribute to their realism. To top it all, I'm using SET gear which too many people think can't produce excellent low-end!! Though I find myself modifying and tube-rolling quite a bit, I've learned how to get my gear to sound anything but "old tube sound". However, I would not classify the sound as being more like solidstate.

Both technologies have (or can) take advantage in the improvement of passive components, and noise control (vibration, EMI, RFI,etc..). Both technologies have benefited from these areas, but I don't believe that this should necessarily imply that the two will eventually converge at some point. There will always be a difference between great solidstate and great tube gear.

Of course, system synergy can dictate one technology over the other (ie. low impedance, low sensitivity speakers).But speaker considerations notwithstanding, as previously stated, it comes down to recreating the "illusion" of a live performance, not just the accurate reproduction of a recording. To this end, properly implimented tube gear ultimately gets me closer to that illusion. Great topic, Redkiwi. Just my .02
martice
103 posts
 
I'm quite happy with my modern day,Multi-ethnic Hybrid SS power amp and Tubed pre amp system.
rushton's avatar
rushton
2,430 posts
 
Excellent comments have been shared by all posters thus far. As Jctubes points out, a tube amplifier need not have any of that "old tube sound". As I listen to good solid state amplifiers and then to good tube amplifiers, I consistently find that tubes just have a certain magic that makes the music more real for me. With good tubes, there is a palpable quality, a tangibility, a "dimensionality" if your will, to instruments and voices, that I have just never found in even the best solid state amplifiers. I hear it in the harmonic overtone structure - instruments and voices just have a greater harmonic richness and nuance. Bear in mind, though, that my listening is almost entirely to acoustic instruments and voice.

By illustration, let me share this experience. Several months ago my wife and I were auditioning some Avalon Eidolon speakers played through some very nice Rowland solid state amplifiers. The sound was excellent - beautiful soundstaging, detailed, extremely quick, and quite musical in a very appealing way - but something was missing. A cut that we often use for such evaluations is from the Opus 3 "Depth of Image" LP: "Tiden Bara Gar" with folk singer Therese Juel. On listening to this cut, my wife's immediate reaction was "Where is the 'chuckle' in her voice? It's not there." The dealer also had a pair of BAT 60 watt tube amplifiers, so we switched those in. These little 60 watters were obviously not the ultimate pairing for the Eidolons, but my wife promptly commented: "Wonderful! The chuckle is back in her voice."

To me, finding "the 'chuckle' in her voice" is as good a summary as any for why we stay with tube amplifiers for our listening.
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