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New Construction Acoustic Design & Consulting

I need a professional consultant to work with my architect to help build as perfect a listening room over my garage as possible. RIVES is one possibility but I don't want to spend 10K just for the consulting work. I would like to build in as much sound isolation and room treatment as possible like that done for this person:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue16/lavigneroom.htm--

Could I use ASC as a primary consultant and RIVES for after the room is built to do the final touch ups and room treatment? They only charge $100 for the engineer to help render sketches and make suggestions for the contractor.

acousticsciences.com

I would need detailed plans so that the architect would know how to impliment the built-in bass traps etc. I would need help with the specifics of window and door selection (materials) and placement, room dimensions, ceiling slope, floating floor, isolation etc... Please also see the list of ideas below. RIVES charges a fortune to render drawings based on a computer modeling system. I am not sure all of that makes sense until after the room is built, furnished and then tested, but certainly it is advantageous to build in as much acoustic isolation and treatment as possible from an aesthetic and cost perspective. Please comment on some of the suggestions below:

Room sizes

13X21X8 Feet
14 X18X8 Feet

windows o.k.
According to Dave Wilson

1. pitch ceiling height lower over speakers, higher over listener
2. Build bass traps into the wall
3. Corner loaded bass traps
4. Bass trap all four vertical corners and the ceiling perimeter corner with a soffit bass trap
5. Room dimensions:
Must over-size room by minimum of 6 inches walls, floor, and ceiling to allow for buildouts for acoustic treatments and sound isolation
A. 13-15 feet wide by 15-23 feet long
B. Room height 7-9 feet
must account for additional height of "floating floor"
C. Wall/stud resonance treatment and constrained layer damping: 1. Sandwich two layers of sheetrock. ? Gyproc Soundbloc 1.5 soundproofing plasterboard 2. Suspend sheetrock off studs by screwing into resilient metal fir strips called "z-metal" or "RC-1" 2. Visco damping material {1/16 " thick double sided adhesive visco-elastic sheet} is applied between the z-metal and the first sheet rock layer and a second visco-elastic sheet between the first and second layers. In place
of double sided adhesive visco-elastic sheet, can 100% glue to both sides a layer of sound board {firtex or celotex}. ? Staggered studs. The ceiling must be treated the same way.
D. Locate entry door behind the listner but on a SIDE WALL {nowhere near the speakers since the door will raddle} NOT ON A BACK WALL AND not flush to the corner and at least 2 feet from the corner. Door cannot rattle? Heavy acoustic door/frame?
E. Windows are very tympanic and should be avoided. Tall narrow windows are best.
Must not use standard thermal type instead use 2 layers of thick laminated glass [like that used for glass shelving in stores] separated by at least 4 inches of air space. The air space must be vented into the wall cavity. Set the glass into a bed of visco-elastic damping material. The glass sheets should be of different thicknesses.
F. Lighting should be subdued, indirect, and dimmable. Do not use standard wall dimmers since they will often hum or buzz. Use a variable voltage transformer. Consider low voltage lighting. Do not use ceiling cans, they rattle. The best light has a ceiling bezel and lens of thick rounded glass. Consider creating a false ceiling to hide projector, cabling, HVAC
ventilation big problem if room needs to be airtight to insure adequate sound isolation and room damping from the rest of the house
G. Address side wall, rear wall, and ceiling reflections which are determined by speaker placement. Room dimensions must account for acoustic panels
dbk
cinematic_systems
282 posts
 
Stehno please, do you really believe that?

"As with some to many things in life, designing a truly superior system and associated room is perhaps more art than science. And "for the level you imply" ultimately, this generally can be accomplished only over a long period of time."

There is no "art" except in the interior design and color selection. Your preference to feel around in the dark and figure stuff out the hard way certainly should be mentioned as a qualifier for your opinion.

Shocking how people with a very high level of investment in audio believe that they have "lucked" into a sound or that it would be impossible to achieve a high level in 45 minutes with the right tools and the right equipment.

This is a science the art was captured by a microphone and from there it is a science of preservation. People who call it art simply don't want to be held to a standard and are taking the intellectually easy way out by not trying to explain what is happening.

I'll tell you what the hardest thing about building a system is, its taking the time to define what you want your system to do and being honest to yourself and everyone else about it. Because if you don't know what you want how can anyone ever deliver something satisfactory?

There is no magic to building a great system, just know how or trial and error.

stehno
1,453 posts
 
Cinematic, just to get an idea where you are coming from, what percentage of enthusiasts and professionals do you suppose have truly superior sounding systems?

As for the 'luck' that you flippantly impose on my supposed achievments. Save the the luck category for somebody who needs it, will ya?

As for your statement about being honest to yourself and everyone else. That kind of talk is just plain silly and without substance. But it sounds sooooo good.

A great sounding system is kinda' like an absolute truth. Something is absolutely true whether we believe it or not. I don't make it true and you don't make it false. It either is or isn't true and it stands in and of itself.

One should be able to pretty much say the same thing about a great sounding system, a fine automobile, a fine wine, etc., etc.. Regardless of personal preferences.

I'm not trying to take away anything from those professional consultants who truly know what they are doing. I was simply pointing out that there are absolutely no guarantees that one of these can do a better job.

Surely, you are not saying that all professional audio consultants know what they are doing, are you?

-IMO
cinematic_systems
282 posts
 
Stehno,

There are never guarantees, but this is obvious. Not getting the right people involved is a mistake in a complex multifaceted project and leaving it to an inexperienced person's common sense doesn't make sense at all.

I don't know what achievements you're discussing, but trial and error is not an efficient or inexpensive process and there is luck involved when you're grasping at straws. What process did you use to assemble your system? I am curious.

"Surely, you are not saying that all professional audio consultants know what they are doing, are you?"

I'd say that most them know 100 times more than any audiophile I know... and don't call me Shirley.
stehno
1,453 posts
 
Cinematic, my experience tells me that there are far fewer professionals in this industry that really know what good sound is and how it can be achieved than even I'd care to admit. Whereas you seem to believe that the majority of 'professionals' do know.

For one thing, it is not complex as you say. It's actually rather simple, so long as one knows what they are doing. Mutifaceted? That too makes it sound 'complex'. I suppose if one were to make it seem complex and convince others of the mutifaceted complexities, then perhaps it's easier to sell a product or service.

Nevertheless, I repeat that if a professional consultant cannot demonstrate a system/room combination that s/he designed that absolutely bowls one over with it's sonic presentation, then it is perhaps best to keep looking or take on the project yourself.

Surely, you can appreciate that.

To a certain degree, your response above validates my point.

-IMO
soundprogression
7 posts
 
Whoa guys,

This is about helping a person make good choices for his room. It's not adequate to tell a person that they have to use a good consultant. Neither is it helpful to tell someone that only experience and experimentation is the way to go. I think we'd all like this person to have a good sounding room. To me, for a person with a limited budget, they'd probably be better off using moderation in all things.

Assuming you do it yourself.

Read everything, believe common agreements between individuals and know that no one product will fix all your rooms issues.

Low freqencies are the most dificult so I'd want the dimensions to be reasonable (no cubes or squares) and make the walls bass lossy (thin GWB and fiberglass in the interior). At least that way room modes will be damped a bit. Then experiment with speaker and seating placement.

Mid to high frequency absorbers are easiet to install after the walls are up so maybe wait until the furiniture is in.

If want to use a consultant:

Call dealers, search the web, call your speaker manufacturer to see what they'd like to see in your room or if they know who might help.

I agree there are way to many consultants that don't know how to create a good sounding space and I know there are a few that do. Some of them don't charge much for a phone call or a simple review of plans.
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