Turntable or go into SACD, Simon Yorke vs EMM Lab

Cello,

I completely agree that a good TT set-up will surpass any CD, this is primarily due to the brick wall anti-aliasing filters that all PCM (including durrent DVD-a) recordings must go thru.

However, I cannot agree with you on DSD and here is why..PURE DCS recordings ..emphasis on PURE ie. straight from microphone to recorder (and not convnered to PCM for editing / mixing) are our modern day equivalent of the vinyl Direct to Disc recordings...no mixing desks ..no anti-aliasing filters...basically the DSD processor looks at the audio signal 2.? something million times a second and determines dit the amplitude increase/decrease of stay the same.

Knowing the inherent problems with all Anti-alising filters in PCM.. a bunch of purest engineers set out on the absolute best way to archive the deteriotaing Master tapes of the last centuary and this was an ingenious solution!!

The situation we have now is most of the treasures captured in analog format over the last centuary are now archived in DSD...the best copy you will ever get of these treasures is a pure DSD copy.

Of course the downside of DSD from the Professionals point of view is you cant manipulte it in the DSD domain and most studios manipulate music in PCM... So basically PCM recordings (CD / DVD-a) are the equivalent of your typical mixed down recordings with the typical artifacts of the multiple layers of processing the signal had to go thru.

So if your prioroties are 'documentary style' recordings .. for classical or small ensambles PURE DSD is you best bet and if at some stage you want to hear the modern day eqivalent of a vinyl direct ot disc then again PURE DSD is your best bet.

If you have read my insight on this topic you will understand that the wonders of the straight direct to disc vinyl recordings we cherished ( and were only available in limited numbers) are now available to everyone in the the form of PURE DSD.

Before you knock this insight go hear a well made PURE DSD thru a Meitner and you will beleive!!!

My suggestion to the original question stands...

Upgrade you CD library by getting a Meitner DCC2...and ultimatly upgrade to the Propietary link (which will get the best out of both CD and DSD)when you are comfortable with the fact that PURE DSD recordings are in fact modern day equivalents to the direct of disk LP.

Feel free to contact me directly...

my id is 'ceol'..gaelic for music !!

Just relax and avoid the SACD hype. The rush to want to get on the wagon is not rational. Your TT will sound better. In fact, DVD-A sounds better.

Redbook is very good (SACD is marginally better, so what?), so why get into it. Wait 5 years or so. I'm guessing it will probably be over a decade before we really see what and if a new format is going to emerge. And there is no guarantee that a new format won't take the place of SACD. SACD has been out 4-5 years and look how slow it is moving.

Hi Robm321,

I am an Electronics Engineer with over 25 years insight into professional recording, I fear my technical insight may be a liitle beyond most non-engineers but I will try and clarify / justify my advise on the original question which was shoud 'I get into SACD or continue to invest in LP '....

I think you did not quite understand my technical insight or appreciate the enormity of the reality of direct to disk or PURE DSD recordings in the DSD format...read again and understand that.

1. All PCM recordings, because of the Nyquist criteria must be filtered at less than twice the sampling rate. All anti-aliasing filters introduce colorations.just like any pair of glasses you put on no matter how good..it just depends on how audible they are...they are very audible on CD but much less so on DVD-a..some people in professional circles feel you need to go to 192k in DVD-a to really make them in-audible.

Some of the most respected engineers , Tony Faulkner for example despise Anti-aliasing filters and does not use them at all on his LSO live label which he masters His thinking is there is so little info above 22.05 k that tryning to remove it does more harm than good...based on the sonic quality of his CD's I think he is right.

2.PURE DSD is not hype..knowing the inherent colorations of all anti-aliasing filters the engineers at the end of the last centuary were faced with a dilema of archiving degrading 2/3 channel analog master tapes as faithfully as possible...they were driven by the technical challenge to archive them as best as possible, not to create a new format to upset everyone.

DSD ( DIRECT STREAM DIGITAL .. the format name says a lot)was technically the best solution. They could have chosen PCM but realised after 20 years of PCM they still had the inherent colorations of Anti-aliasing filters and chose to avoid them all together...I applaud their courage & purist dedication to soving the problem staring them in the face.

3.DVD-a is a quantum leap in PCM & is arguably what CD should have been from day 1..however they did not have the technology back then...neither the HI-res DAC's, High sampling rates and in particular the technology to fit over 700 Mb on a CD.

CD made some gross compromises...

a. They assumed no audio info above 22.05 k.

b. They allowed a non-stndard Anti_aliasing filter (aka Brick wall filter) which introduced phase anomolies in the upper HF audio band which were audible but impossible to mirror immage out as the vinyl RIAA curve did...this is why Vinyl inherently sounds more natural than any CD.

I go to classical concerts every two weeks & have a good reference point...I applaud the hybrid SACD which allows us to play CD in the car etc. & then read the higher res layer in our domestic systems..I also applaud them being able to do all this for just a few dollars on the cost of the CD.
DVD initially did not offer this and are playing catch-up now.

I truly did not want this tread to get Hi-jacked into a Format argument, I simply wanted to pass on a clearer insight into the parallels between PURE DSD and direct to disk LP's which we know and cherish so much as vinyl lovers.

Clearly, Dgad who asked for the advise realised he / she was hearing a technical break thru on hearing the Meitner...perhaps now understaning the technical hoops that all PCM recordings must go thru and that Meitner equipment is used in making over 90% of all PURE DSD's) Dgad will now have better insight as to which way to go.

Finally, I consider it historic that after 100 years in audio we can now have at home the equipment used to make the original recording & I applaud Ed Meitgner for making his purest studio equipment available to the audiophile public at such a reasonable cost.

Regards,

Ceol .. which is Gaelic for Music !!

Hi Ceol,

After 100 years Vinyl still sounds the best. And it has been around over 100 years. That tells me that sound quality is not the priority to profit driven companies. Convenience seems to be the idea. It went from Vinyl "best" to CD "worse" to mp3 "even worse" all due to convenience.

That's my hesitation. I hope SACD or moreover DVD-A (which sounds better to my ears, but has dismal software, even worse than SACD) does become mainstream because I would like better sound that's more convenient. But audiophiles don't drive the marketplace.

SACD is still up in the air after 4-5 years after release. My guess is it will still be for the next 5 years. So in making a decision which way should you go. Buy SACD player and hope to find enough music that you like to listen to? Get vinyl which will be around until something better comes along (nothing on the horizon) and get a CD player as backup (covers most recorded music) -- it's ultimately up to you. I've made my choice.

Hi Ceol,

Thanks for detailing the differences between the different formats (quite helpful). I think that some go forward advice would not include DVD-a at this time.
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Vinyl will be my home for a quite a while (at least while the dust clears on the different formats). The Catalogue of music available on LP far outstrips the DVD-a catalogue. Considering that I have gotten my red book set up sounding pretty decent (approaching or equal to SACD that I have heard in other systems, I can’t see the logic of jumping to one of the other formats at this point.
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I imagine that most serious music lovers/listeners have a fairly substantial investment in a Red Book CD collection and there is also a ton of stuff available on LP that is not available on any other format. Classical will probably be quite slow coming onto the DVD-a format due to the low sales volume potential. If one taste leans heavily into classical, I can’t see at this point how you could build a decent library in the formats other than Red Book and Vinyl.

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My recommendation would be to hang on to the Red Book collection that she has, buy SACD/Red Book versions of what you have to have and dive into Vinyl. The Vinyl will always be a great asset and then you can wait until some format comes forward with both great sonics and a wide range of availability and move in that direction when it makes sense.
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