What do you do when nothing seems to get LP clean?

This is a copy of what I wrote to Paul after I tried his Enzymatic solution:

Rx'ed order yesterday, and late last night (this am) I
tried your solutions. Results??? (this is only after
trying it on a half dozen or so records) I'm very
pleasantly surprised. I have been skeptical about the
miracles posted about vinyl cleaners. I have used my
own solution of distilled water, alcohol, photo flow
w/a nitty gritty for decades and it has keep my
records clean. I tried one of the recent two-step,
ultra-pure solutions and was not impressed. My
records are already clean. I heard no improvement.
But since your stuff is very reasonably priced and I
was running low on my cleaner, I thought I'd try
yours.

Your stuff, on the other hand, is a different matter.
I heard , and these are my ears and on my system, a
better defined sound stage that seemed to be the
result of a low level glare or edginess that was
removed from all the records that I tried. (I listened
before and after cleaning.) While the music was
somewhat smoother, musical detail and texture was
enhanced. The results were consistent on very old
dime store vinyl as well as new, audiophile pressings.
I had not realized the glare was present.

Not bad.

So you have another happy customer.

***To summarize my results: I'm very happy w/the Enzymatic solution, it's far better than my DIY solution that I've used for years and years and another 2 step, ultra-pure cleaner that I tried.

I've been thinking of trying some of the more exotic/expensive record cleaning fluids. However, it seems from this thread that there is some concern about the long term effects of the chemicals, enzymes, whatever that are in these cleaners. Another poster also expressed concerns about tap water.

I use a drop of mild ivory dishsoap, tapwater, and a carbon fiber brush to scrub my records. I then rise them off quickly and thouroughly with the shower spray on the tap, and then rise again with distilled water. I've thought about a vacuum, but the rinse with the shower seems to flush the debris out and off the records. I let them air dry in the dish rack. They seem to dry clean - if there are any drops of water left on them, I dab them, not wipe them, off with a paper or cloth towel. I've been doing this for quite some time and it seems to work well, no problems yet. Many records show a marked improvement in sound quality afterwards, especially since I started using the carbon fiber brush. Others, however, sound bad no matter what because they are just poor recordings. In the end, for now I have a little more trust in TAP water which I can drink.

Wildoats,

Please do not think our discussions about the safety of various cleaning solutions was in any sense an endorsement of using tap water. Nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm one who expressed certain concerns about the long term impact on vinyl of enzymes and other ingredients in Paul Frumkin's AIVS solutions.

Mr. Kidknow addressed the enzyme related concerns quite effectively. My remaining concerns are at a pretty low level, so I'm pretty happy using AIVS on any record that doesn't clean up completely using RRL.

As far as tap water goes, dozens of audiophiles plus several water industry and chemical industry professionals have warned against using it. I hear the problems it causes. The professionals have explained why it causes those problems. Any residual effects which may or may not result from the use of those "exotic/expensive" record cleaners are dwarfed by the immediate and long term damage from using tap water of unpredictable composition. The fact that you choose to drink it is of coure irrelevant.

You can choose to ignore all that evidence of course. They're your records and you can do with them as you please.

You've never tried any record cleaning solutions, nor even vacuuming, so your decision does not appear particularly rational. You've made no meaningful comparisons, so rejecting the possibly inconvenient or more costly advice of those who have just reads like a bit of wishful thinking.

Wildoats ... my tap water has 286 parts per million of total dissolved solids. These would get deposited on -- and in -- your vinyl if you used my local tap water. Ultra-pure water has from 0 to 0.5 ppm of tds. Distilled water is safe and very good ... but ultra-pure is in another league as far as SAFE solvent ability is concerned.

As for soap ... it's another bad idea. Next time you shower, check out how much water it takes to get the soap off your body. No way you can use that much water to rinse your LP, unless you're using tap water, which (as noted above) is a very bad idea. Soap also has fragrances and hand lotions in it that have no business being in the same room as your vinyl.

As for a fairly effective RCM, it doesn't have to be expensive. A basic ... BASIC ... RCM can be made from a wet-dry vacuum (a/k/a a shop-vac) and lint-free cotton toweling (available for photography supply stores). Buy a new attachment (approx. 1.5" x 4") for the end of the shop-vac, and get Disc Doctor's fabric that he sells as replacements for the "velvet lips" on Nitty Gritty machines. Now line the orifice of the vac attachment with the fabric (so that only the fabric touches your LP) ... and depending on the horsepower of your vac, drill some holes in the attachment to lighten the suction some. Lay your LP on the lint-free cotton toweling, apply an APPROPRIATE cleaner, brush and vacuum. Wallah! Instant RCM. For a more fancy rig using a shop-vac, check out my self-designed RCM, which you can view under my "Systems."

But listen to Dougdeacon and the other experienced vinylphiles here. Experience keeps a dear school, you know.

Best regards,
Paul

Gee whiz. Irrational? I never said I know the "be all and end all of record cleaning." I simply stated that some posters had expressed concerns about the chemicals whatever in what I understand to be something more than my simple inexpensive way to clean records. I also never dissed any specific product and if anyone took it that way, sorry. But, I have heard/read that some of these products are pricey. If that's not true, great. I was, I guess, joining the discussion, admittedly probably over my head. However, I just wanted to share my personal experience. I'm not criticizing anyone's product, I haven't even tried them. I hope they work well, good for you. I did attempt to just share my experience. I too hope my vinyl doesn't melt or slide off my platter. I will still say that I've had good results with my method. Maybe I'm totally wrong. You know I'm nuts too. Like I posted, I've been thinking of trying the stuff. It's just when posters who I think have more vinyl experinece than I have questions about a cleaning fluid, then I wonder too. Peace.