Phase Coherence or Time Alignment: Which More Imp?


This thread is really a follow on from a prior one that I let lapse. Thanks to everyone who contributed and helped me to better understand the importance of crossover design in building a loudspeaker. What I gathered from the last thread that there are opposing camps with different philosophies in crossover design. Leaving aside for a moment those that champion steep slope designs, my question is for those who have experience with speakers that are time aligned and/or phase coherent (using 1st order 6db per octave crossovers). Which is more important, phase coherence or time alignment? In other words, which more strongly influences the sound and performance of a loudspeaker? The reason I ask is because of the four speaker lines currently on my shortlist of floorstanders, three are either phase coherent or time aligned or both. The Wilson Benesch Curve's/ACT's and the Fried Studio 7 use 1st order crossovers but do not time align the drivers through the use of a slanted baffle. The Vandersteen 5's and the Quatro's both time align the drivers and use 1st order crossovers. I guess what I am asking is do you need to do both or is the real benefit in the crossover design? I'd appreciate your views.
BTW the other speaker is the Proac D25 and D38
dodgealum
There are far too many variables from one system to another for you to conclude that the crossover method is the root cause of the difference. Our speakers are used by many discerning professionals who know what live music sounds like, since they are exposed to it every day.
Jeff, I totally accept your position. Having initiated the thread on crossover design (on which you were a gracious participant) I just thought it interesting to go back and forth between the rooms and listen to the two top models of reputable brands' that approach the crossover differently. I realize that other factors contributed to the differences I heard. I'm just wondering to what degree those differences are attributable to the diametrically opposed crossover designs. One thing I did notice was that the Joseph Audio Pearls seemed to image with greater precision than the Vandersteen 5A's. Localization of individual instruments was much easier. The images on the Vandy's seemed to float around. They weren't anchored in position as they would be live. On the other hand, the soundstage depth and width of the Vandy's was, to my ear, far superior to the Pearls. I wonder if others have had similar experience listening to either of these models and whether, again, the crossover design is in part to blame.
I don't believe you can demonstrate that having a time and phase coherent speaker is more important than having a just a phase coherent speaker. The problem in being definitive is not merely that it's largely a matter of preference - which it is, just like I prefer Patti Smith to Norah Jones - there are unresolved matters of psychoacoustics in testing something like this, as well as a particular design method's suitability to a particular use. For example, a time aligned speaker might not be appropriate for extreme near field listening; it objectively wouldn't be the best for that situation. But it might be the best in another situation.

Of course, Jeff J. thinks each kind is less appropriate for virtually every situation.
The speakers in our room were not the Pearls but a new model called the RM55LE. I am glad to hear that you noticed the excellent image focus of our design - something that low order fans often cite as a benefit of that approach!

The sense of musicality is hard to define - it is by and large a subjective topic. I think for some it means a softer tonality or euphonic balance.

What it means to me is to experience the full expression that is part of the musician's interpretation. Dynamics and subtle details that rivet your attention not on the mechanical aspects of reproduced sound, but on the human heart beating within the performer(s). Another poster mentioned that when he listened to an LP on our system that the system itself seemed to "go away" - and that is the highest compliment one can hope for.

A euphonic system will sound more pleasant on poor recordings, but it can never sound real enough to bring the performance back to life.
I just wouldn't focus so much on design. I would focus on what I thought would satisfy me over the long haul or you will be one of those with speakers for sell every few months. This debate about time and phase coherent speakers vs steep slope will go on forever with nothing being accomplished. Everyone is in a camp and will probably stay there until they gain enough experience listening (and becoming a critical listener)to understand what they are hearing and why.
I am in the time and phase camp and got there after many different speakers and years of analysis and listening.
Technically, ALL speakers are a trade off of one sort or another. However, phase and time aligned speakers come closer to reproducing the input signal than other designs. Steep slope speakers may swoon the listener but they have scrambled the output signal compared to the signal coming in. Would you buy an amp that screws up phase and time domain (actually high global feedback amps do this)?
Time and phase speakers are not perfect and there is lots to understand but for me, they simply sound more musical. Are they right for you? Only you can answer that.
Now, with all that said, one has to decide on what it is that they are after, wether it be dynamics, transparency or whatever. It is not arrived at easily. As your experience grows (and I actually think age plays a factor here)things will change and you may appreciate other designs.
So just don't get so caught up in all the design BS. It confuses the issue and will ultimately lead you to disappointment. Find something you like and go with it.
Also, no disrespect to Joseph Audio, but do you think he would recommend something he doesn't build? It would be like a Ford dealer telling you to buy a Toyota! If someone really cares about your musical enjoyment, they would tell you to satisfy yourself. It is you that has to be happy not them!