Stylus Rake Angle

Dear Csontos: +++++ " If you guys claim you will see a change in overhang from a minute SRA adjustment................then it's an inherent fault of the system because of the vinyl........... But I'm not so sure that this is relevant to playback. " +++++

I think you can't see it but you can hear it and no it's not an " inherent fault of the system ".

You posted that don not know if it's relevant during playback so you are speculating only with out any fact.

You can find out facts that can confirm or not what you are posting if you take the time o make some tests in your audio system, something like: change by 0.3 mm your today cartridge/tonearm overhang ( right at the headshell. ) and listen.
IMHO if you have a good audio system set up and good system resolution and you are aware how sounds distortions for a wrong overhang then you will hear that with that overhang 0.3 mm. changed the sound is " different ".

Example, if we change from Baerwald to Löfgreeen B set up we can hear the sound differences even that the only change on those geometry set up is only on overhang ( less than 0.5 mm. ).

Audiophiles that today use a better protractor than the one they used for cartridge/tonearm set up can attest that they can hear the differences for the better even that the change in overhang was minite against what they have it.
Almost every person that now are using the Mint LP protractor can tell you that those minute overhang changes makes a difference for the better. Accuracy always make a difference.

So, I think you have to make some tests about and then come back here to share your experiences before more speculations.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++

I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".

I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.

+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++

IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.

Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.

The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:

using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.

Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Dear Csontos: Yes, because transiente performance is main part of Dynamics in live music and recorded one.

As you said: " poor or good " transients, that's " all ".

R.

Dear Peterayer: ++++ " If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high. " +++++

I respect your opinion as the Dougdeacon and FS but I always like to understand a subject analizing what is really happening around that subject before take other opinions as the " bible ".

I posted that maybe " timing " is not the right word but I don't have nothing against the word per se.

+++ " if the fundamental is obscured by the harmonics...." ++++

IMHO you have no precise evidence that that is what really happen because when the cartridge set up is not " perfect " and is off it then we can hear what you are saying because a wrong transient response on the bass but not because the " harmonics obscured the fundamental ".
All of us know that if we want more bright in the cartridge sound/performance we have to make a change to put higher the cartridge tail and for the bass the other way around.

Now, when we are listening our audio system fundamentals and its harmonics over the whole frequency range, of an LP score, comes one after the other in extremely fast way where you, Dougdeacon, FS, me or any one but a Mars bat can identify.

The only way to prove what you say could be to make a live tests:

using a musical instrument ( by a specific player: arp, piano, violin or whatever. ) make a live recording of one and only one note and try to identify fundamental and harmonics live against a D2D recording of that single note and with and with out a " perfect " cartridge set up.

Dynamics and what this envolve is IMHO what we have to look during a cartridge set up.

Regards and enjoy the music,
R.

Csontos and Peterayers hear exactly what I hear.

***
Lewm, sorry we haven't explained this in a way that helps you understand this as a timing issue. Thanks for hanging in there.

Of course you're right that the spinning platter controls the timing of the MUSIC. If a TT runs slow or fast, the pace and pitch of the music will be off. If TT speed varies, we hear pitch shifts.

With SRA we're talking about a timing on a much smaller scale: the *relative* timing of the component parts of a SINGLE NOTE. This kind of timing has nothing to do with pitch or rhythm. TT speed does not affect it, SRA changes alter the internal timing of each note even when TT speed is perfect. In fact, they're easier to hear on a TT that maintains highly accurate speed.

Peter wrote,

If the fundamental is being obscured by the harmonics, the harmonics are arriving too early. I hear this when the arm is too low in the back. If the fundamental occurs unnaturally early, or there appears to be a minute lag before you hear the harmonics after the fundamental, then the arm is too high

I think he got the arm positions reversed, but the effects he described are exactly what I hear.

As for a mechanism to explain this, I can only offer conjecture.

Fact: the cutting stylus had *some* specific SRA. This results in a unique cross-section for each and every complex set of groove modulations that make up what we call a "sound".

Assumption: to trace each cross-section exactly, the playback stylus must have the same SRA.

If the arm is too high at the pivot, the tip of the stylus will encounter each modulation before the the top of the stylus does, ie, too early. If the arm is too low at the pivot, the tip of the stylus will be slightly behind the top of the stylus, ie, too late. In either case, the stylus will "slur" across the modulation instead of encountering each part of it simultaneously.

If the playback stylus "slurs" across each modulation rather than tracing it *exactly* as cut, the aural effect is that harmonics arrive either too early or too late RELATIVE TO their fundamental.

I would not argue that this is necessarily what is occuring, but this is what it sounds like.

***
Raul mentioned dynamics. Optimal SRA provides optimal micro-dynamics. If the playback styles traces each modulation as cleanly as possible, cantilever excursions will match the path of the cutting head as closely as possible. To the extend the playback stylus "slurs" across modulations, cantilever excursions will be reduced and slurred in time, reducing dynamics.

I find this harder to hear than timing errors in fundamental vs. harmonics, but Paul finds it easier. With regard to SRA changes, I believe he and Raul hear similar things.