Rich; organic true balanced amp w good detail $6k

well guys- just got home from the gym, and listening to one of my fav's- Pharoah Sanders Quartet's (what a great tenor sax player) double-disc 'Crescent with Love' on my 2nd system (47 labs digital; recently acquired Air Tight ATC-2 preamp- talk about suave & velvety- time to pour a glass of California Cab and chill for a while...)

Tvad- yours is a system I would really like to hear- in fact, one other company my speaker designer said he respects is Silverline, and I understand Ralph at AS makes a great preamp. Perhaps the Belles is worth checking out- there is definitely a loyal legion of fans, however am not sure if they have a model that is fully balanced- will have to look into that. The fact that you replaced a set of Vac's better amps says something...

Cyto- thanks for the tips on the Sistrum 'tweaking'- I will check into that- up here in Canada we have good access to Maple :-) Hey- GREAT recommendation on the Lamms! In fact, a good friend of mine now has M1.1's to drive his newly acquired Verity Parsifal Encores. He has always had a Lamm L1 preamp, and to say he is loving the new setup/synergy would be an understatement! Re: VTL, it sounds like the 450 Sig's would be the way to go. I am only slightly hesitant due to re-tubing costs, as this system also doubles as a 2-ch HT setup for movies, etc., so it is on a LOT- if I go tubes, as long as they are run conservatively (as in my preamp), then that's ok I guess. Manley- have not heard them. Music Reference? That sounds interesting- have you heard them, and what did you feel was their best amp(s) sonically?

Bob_reynolds- I believe the output impedance to be 50 ohms for the unbalanced outputs, and 78 ohms for the balanced- would this affect anyone's recommendations?

John (will the 'real' JMcgrogan please stand up :-) another great system- that vinyl rig must sounds sweet, and I like that room size! Almost the perfect 1.6:1 length to width ratio (I think Cardas talked about that).

Grannyring- another Belles recommendation- wow- they seem to be the winner in my little poll tonight! I will try to check them out, but I have never come across them up here in Toronto.

Thanks again guys, and keep it comin'! Btw- while riding the bike at the gym, I was fascinated by the Democratic Presidential candidate debates. I am Canadian, but find this an interesting race- Hilary seemed pretty composed tonight, and answered questions in a multi-faceted way. Is it just me, or did Edwards seem to 'team up' a little w Obama...

Sutts, the Belles 150A Reference and 350A Reference amplifiers only work as monoblocks when their balanced XLR inputs are utilized. I assume this means they are fully balanced in this configuration, but I could be wrong. I don't know the difference between your definition of fully balanced and Belles' definition of balanced.

Most listeners who have heard the amps both as stereo amps (single ended only) and as monoblocks agree that the monoblock configuration is superior in all respects.

BTW, if I had the dough, I'd own Lamm 1.2 monoblocks...

Tvad- have you heard the Lamm's up against the Belles? If not, regardless of the comparison, what are your sonic impression of the Lamm 1.1/1.2 amps? I think my buddy got his Lamm 1.1 monos for just over $7k USD used- from what I understand a good deal...

Hey- I was just reading up on the 150A ref's- they seem like a great choice- how hot do they run though, and are they meant to be turned off when not in use? Do they do texture like tubes?

I've owned Lamm M1.1's and M2.1 and my friends fell in love with them but then I heard the VTL S400 releasized I needed some more clarity and also surpising the VTL went lower and deeper and it was definitely tighter.. I can't imagine the Belles comparing to the Lamm's as they are really addictive and some day I'm dying to get a set of Lamm ML2.1... If you run the Lamms in a home theater setup you better drop the center channel because there is no way you will find a matching tonal center channel amp... run Phantom Mode..

Sutts: The Lamm M1.1 versus M1.2 ..yes the M1.2's are better (not in a huge difference as he just used more currently available parts) and they provide like another 10 watts a channel. The biggest advantage are they are newer (since these run in Class A full time) Expect to see them listed for about $6000-7500 for Lamm M1.1's and somewhere north of 10k for M1.2's. Oh yeah and buy the 6922 input tubes from Lamm as they were like $25 each from them.... total no brainer bargain..

As far as the VTL amps.. 6550 tubes from VTL are about $60 each but you can get between 5,000-10,000 hours I out of tube the way VTL runs them... plus the best part is no matched pairs,quads, octets.... so way cheaper than ARC retubing... one tube blows, just drop in another. The new VTL450 signature has the computer controlled biasing which is awesome... similar tech to the S400 stereo amp. VTL no problem for home theater...

As far as Music Reference amps... I have owned the RM200 twice and I still regret selling it.. it's not as organic/seductive as the Lamms but it's more open on the top and crystal clear with even 2ohm control.. it only requires a Quad of 6550, or KT88's tubes which I recommend buying from Ram Tubes (Music Reference's company) especially the input tubes because they DC stress them which no one else does .. Music Reference amps aren't hard on tubes and tube that would be noisy in other amps are quiet in the RM amps.. The older RM9 required more expensive Matched Quads to achieve 100watts a channel or 125watt a channel in the RM9 MkII. These don't have the iron fist control of the RM200 (which can borerline on sounding similar to the high end SS Ayre amp in clarity and control) This might be similar to the Vac with the sparkle, and also without the constant repairs my friends have had with their VAC's (they sold them now and went back to solid state... after 3 roundtrips back to the factory..) Music Reference.. no problem for home theater.. Check out Audiocircle dot com for the Music Reference Forum, I'm sure you can post and find someone near you to hear these amps.. very minimalist but bulletproof design and they sound great!

I have not heard the Lamm amps in direct comparison with the Belles, but I would expect the Lamm amps to sound better...they ought to at more than three times the price. Please note I was referring to the Lamm hybrid design, and not the Lamm SET amps.

The 150A Reference amp and 350A Reference amp run cool. I have owned each, but I have only owned a single 350A Reference whereas I own 150A Reference monos.

I have been told that the Belles amps are meant to be left on, but I turn mine off each night. Energy consumption guilt. A couple hours of warm up gets them up to optimal sound, IMO.

Do they texture like tubes? That's a tough question. No solid state amps that I have heard sound like tube amps, but they do some things better than tube amps I have owned. The strength of the Belles amps is their tonal balance, sweet top end, bass control, and resolution.

The VAC tube amps I have owned were stunningly clear and holographic. However, they were not as tonally balanced and their bass, while excellent, was not as deep and solid. I also would not characterize them as warm because their top end has so much sparkle.

The designer of my Silverline speakers recommended Belles (or Pass Labs) amplification, and he was correct IMO. Have you asked Israel Blum what amps he would recommend for your Coincident speakers?