Holographic imaging


Hi folks, is the so called holographic imaging with many tube amplifiers an artifact? With solid state one only hears "holographic imaging" if that is in the recording, but with many tube amps you can hear it all the time. So solid state fails in this department? Or are those tube amps not telling the truth?

Chris
dazzdax
DC,

If you read my second to last post here I think you'll see we agree that "holographic imaging", assuming this refers to transparency, is more of a room and acoustics thing and not an artifact of SS versus tube.
To my mind Newbee has given the best description of what is meant by "holographic imaging". What Mapman seems to refer to seems to me to have more to do with good soundstaging and placement of instruments therein. Bloom is something which is easy to hear in a live concert and devilishly difficult to reproduce at home even with the very best rigs. It has to do with the aura which appears around a played tone before it disappears into the next. It has to do with transparency but is not the same thing. It has nothing to do with reverberations of sound bouncing off the walls of a hall. It has nothing to do with a good reproduction of transients. That is again something different, which a transparent system can dissolve to good effect. To my ears it is the lack of bloom which distinguishes even the best systems from the real thing.
Besides, to my mind a well designed amp will give you a good 3D rendering, if all the points Mapman has mentioned are taken care of and it does not matter if it SS, digital amp or tube. To maintain that one technology clobbers the rest is not supported by what I have experienced so far.
Newbee, I think I generally agree with what you're saying but can you please explain the assertion that omni's are not inherently capable of holographic imaging? I have never heard a pure omni design, but I would expect them to be inherently more capable, when set up correctly, than more traditional designs.
By the way, holographic imaging is a somewhat vague term not commonly heard in these audiophile parts.

"Holographic Imaging" is a specific feature on Carver pre-amps that you can switch in and out as desired.

I am very familiar with this effect from living with a Carver pre for many years and through various system incarnations. The resulting sound, on a properly set up system, is much like Newbie describes.

I've found other ways to accomplish the same effect without using the holography feature on the Carver and do not use it at all these days. My system is all SS and no tubes (so far).

Mapman, The pure Omni's are designed to propagate a signal in a 360 degree circle so when you are listening to them you are hearing a small direct signal (think of a 'point source type speaker' listened to in the near field which excludes most of the reverberant sounds from room surfaces). In addition, you are hearing all of the reverberant sounds arriving at different times depending on the distance they will travel. Great atmospherical potential hear. And one of the reasons that some of the manufacturers claim that they are great with large orchestral music, but few claim that they are great for solo vocals. Actually the direct sound with an Omni is a minor component of the sound field.

Omni'his, well executed, will give a great 'sound stage' effect. It will fill your room and you'll be happy to some degree anywhere in the room. But in the final anyalysis all of the reverberant energy will blur the direct signal and obscure any real holographic imaging.

Think of my analogy to a live person 50 ft away clearly recognized as such compared to a life sized and colored paper cut out. And then in a fog you can't tell one from the other.

To a lesser degree than Omni's, you have the same issues with panels and electrostats. Some of the electrostats and panels (I have both types in the closet) have developed a manner of shaping to signal to enhance the sense of focused imaging, which make the principle sounds real life size (like vocalists in particular) and maintaining a big sound field.

But, as you have probably guessed, the better the sense of focused imaging the more they lose the sense of a huge airy sound stage. I believe, like my panels and electrostats, Ohm's latter designs (after the F models) went from 360 degrees to a speaker which reduced its off axis energy to reduce the amplitude of reberberated energy and enhance the on axis signals. I could be wrong.

That is one of the reasons some folks want speakers which can produce sharp pin point imaging and take great care in setting them up to minimize reverberant energy - then you hear what is in the pits and grooves with out added room effects, at least to the extent that you can, or wish to exclude them. Some folks like near field listening which takes out most reverberant energy, especially when you deaden the 1st reflection points on the sides, the ceiling, the floors, and the wall behind the speakers. Needless to say, but I will, a lot of folks don't like this sound. But it is exactly the circumstances that allow the creation of sonic holography.

I hope this makes a bit of sense to you. But the bottom line is you really have to hear what I'm talking about. It is hard to describe. But, what the hell - here goes.

About 20 years ago I went into a retail shop near Berkley, Ca. They had a small listening room which contained Theil 4a's, powered by Threshold SA2's, driven by a CJ5 pre amp, an Oracle TT and I forget the cartridge. They played Opus 3's "Depth of Image". One cut has a group of guys playing pan flutes and drums (the flutes are a toughy). Anyway in the middle of the cut they flubbed up the flutes and broke into a brief conversation. I kid you not, the talking was so realistic that I felt you could easily walk into the middle of the group and join them. Replicating this experience has occupied me ever sense. I think I'm as close as I can get in my present environment with my current stuff, but I ain't there. Yet! :-)

The thing that makes this subject difficult for many, I think, is that most folks have not heard a really holographic imaging system with appropriate recordings (often very minimally miked recordings) and confuse great soundstaging from holographic imaging. I know I didn't until I heard one.

BTW, if you have any doubt in your mind about what your system is capable of, get a recording from Opus 3. They did a series of 'test' disc's one of which was called "Depth of Image" and another was "Timbre". They were originally on LP's but are now available in a compilation of CD over the internet.

These recordings are compilations of several recordings put out by Opus 3, from solo vocalist, solo instrumental, small bands, small jazz groups, large jazz orchestra, etc. Forgive the fact that they are all Swed's. Each cut will have a description of what you should hear. If you don't hear what the cut sez, you have work to do. It is all there. Some of the cuts are excelent for resolving (or at least identifying problems in your system. For example, a recorder playing in its high registers. You get that right and you have a fine HFR - get it wrong and your ears will bleed. I highly recommend these recordings for set up and equipment evaluation as well.

Hope that helps a bit.