Audio Research Ref 5 preamp

>how the heck can these guys justify charging more then the
>Ref3 list price when it's less work etc.

Just consider that the usd/euro rate is less than .70 today.

I owned a Ref3 and now own a Ref5. It was a mystery for me how ARC could sell the Ref3 for 10000 usd - other preamps in this price did not have the build quality of the Ref3.
Looking at current used prices of the Ref3 at audiogon it is now definitively a true audiophile bargain !

Dev, I share your sentiments and thoughts, and also own a Ref3. I actually prefer the horizontal board layout of the ref5, and in some ways cannot understand why they ever used vertical boards, however with the cover on the preamp, I usually do not dwell on it!
At this level of quality and performance, improvements are going to be slight as you mention. I think they are charging more because they can. I will borrow one to try in my setup sometime, but I am not in a hurry either.

I wish I could say that the improvements of the Ref5 are slight versus the Ref3, but IMHO they are not.
The Ref 5 has lower noise and higher resolution, but also handles dynamics in a more musical way.
I have measured the noise and distortion spectrum of the Ref5 and both broadband noise and mains harmonics are really lower than those of the Ref3.

Obviously there will always be a spectrum of opinion on new models versus what they are replacing. For those pleased with the Ref 3's performance there is little reason to waste time or money considering an upgrade. Who knows, the differences are so striking between the two models that maybe some might prefer the softer and more languid presentation of the 3.

I am taken by surprise however that _anyone_ could ascribe their differences as minor or inconsequential in any top system context. It would be interesting to know more about the system and circumstances of that opinion, but it came as second hand so there's no way to qualify it.

In 25 years of system building and evaluating hundreds of components I've never heard a larger difference between successive models of any component, let alone pre-amps. By comparison, the CD-7 to CD-8 upgrade was minor --though that was a pleasing and worthwhile upgrade. As I stated earlier,in my experience the difference is much closer to the difference one should expect upgrading to more powerful, refined twice-the-price amps in a system with slightly inefficient speakers.

Hi guys, this dealer is one of the first original ARC dealers arround, along with ARC caries all kinds of other gear including Jeff Rowland, Boulder, DCS, Esoteric, JM Labs, Sonus Faber and the list goes on. They have all the toys to play with and to compare and as per my thread above that's what I was told. I have not compared in my own set-up as I have already mentioned but what I will say that I have found in this hobby is that some seem to have to justify their owning and it's a personality thing, for me it's not.

I'm sure the dealer would have liked a sale especially when I was prepared to buy but being a long time client told me what they did so all I can say is I'll find out down the road but as I mentioned in no hurry now.