SET the best?

hey Atmasphere...interesting. i have heard the argument for frequency extension on the upper end. what do you mean by "artifacts"? are these artifacts measured or only heard? please forgive me as I am not an engineer. i'm looking at a square waves and looks pretty good to me. thanks....

I think he is talking about the missing fundamental effect. If the fundamental frequency is f, there will be harmonics at 2f, 3f, 4f, and so on. Even if your system can not produce the fundamental (as has been pointed out, the bass note on a piano goes as low as 27.5Hz), it can definitely produce the harmonics which is how you perceive the bass note. Your brain fills it in.

I can listen to piano on my iPod earphones which definitely don't go as low as 27.5Hz, but I can still "hear" bass notes on the piano.

There are products out there that take advantage of the missing fundamental effect by boosting the harmonics, giving the sensation of more bass.

IMO if there is a subsonic rolloff, you hear it as a diminution of bass impact. It can also be measured quite easily- square wave tilt is the measurement. Having played around with LF cutoff frequencies a lot (our amps are full power to either 1Hz or 2Hz), all I can say is its easy to hear once you know what you are looking for provided you have speakers with bandwidth into the low 20s.

Thanks to both of you! I'll have to look for it next time I have my amp on the scope but I don't remember seeing a tilt.

For me it was.

I had a few well revered ss amps (Rowland, Threshold,...) and auditioned many others (Levinson, Krell,...), but when I decided to go tube, without any auditioning, just out of curiosity from what I had read, like you, it was, in hindsight, one of the most revelatory experiences of my high-end audio journey. I was a convert from the first instrument, first voice and haven't looked back. I was in shock by just how real and natural the sound was and amazed that the bass actually trumped my ss amp. You always hear about how tube amps have no bass and that couldn't have been further from the truth. The bass from the tube amp was not only deeper, with more impact, it was also more musical, dynamic, tight, and fast. That last ss amp was the Rowland Model 10. Hard to believe a 15 watt hand made, point to point wired 572 Svetlana power tube monoblock amp embarrassed a 150wpc ss amp. But it did. And you'd think it'd have to for the price. It was the ViVa Verona Monoblocks. The ViVa absolutely demolished the Rowland in every which way. I had never heard music sound quite like that. Almost magical. The sound was nothing like I had heard before from ss. Now I knew what all the gushing talk over tube gear was about. After that I played around with some others (lower priced, both high and low power) and ended up with TRON Cantata 300B mono's, having had the TRON Jubilate monos just before that. I probably would have kept the ViVa had I decided to get more efficient speakers first instead of a more powerful tube amp (I had Kharma Ceramique 2.1's). Now I have 98dB Horning Agathon Ultimate speakers. Another revelation of sound and a design, like tubes, that makes most audiophiles skin crawl - horns. Again, nothing like I've heard before. I had Maggies for years and swore I'd never have traditional box cone driver speakers. But I kept an open ear and listened to one years back. That's all it took to hear that I was missing something. The horn speaker was as dramatic a transformation for speakers as tubes were with amps.
It's hard to understand how some audiophiles have such an aversion to tube gear in general, and in some cases plain prejudicial, without even hearing one. But thats' how some people are. They don't like change. Having been a ss audiophile for more years then with tubes I have to think it's just tradition, like those who think audiophiles are nuts and that there's no difference in sound with the HiFi gear, or cables,..etc. I think they're just in denial because it's so different to what they're used to. They don't want to believe what they're hearing. It's not ss so it can't be good. Speaking from my experience though, I have never heard such musical realism except at a live performance.