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Natural and Neutral could be boring ..

Hello Guys,

First .. Happy New Year to everyOne!

Building my hi-fi setup I have always searched for "Natural & Neutral" sound and so I have added every piece of my rig thinking and searching in this direction...
Yesterday night , during a listening session , I was thinking about this and theoretically I couldn't be happier about the result

Here my gears:

The loved phono section:

TW Acustic Raven One
Graham Phantom MKII / IC70
Benz LP
Whest Audio PS30 RDT SE
Mogami Neglex balanced to the preamp

The not so loved CD rom session:

Philips CDD 882 (transport)
Philips DAC 960 (converter)
Mogami Neglex balanced to the preamp

Pass Labs X1
Parasound Halo JC1's
IC cables Mogami Neglex balanced

Thiel CS 2.4
Speaker cables Cardas Golden Reference

My room is quite a large room (36 ft. x 20 ft. 10ft. high) and Thiels are pratically in open air :-)) 7,5 ft. from the wall and more from side walls.

Well , I think to have reached an hi-fi setup that sounds pratically Natural and Neutral .. maybe not the 100% but IMHO I'm not far from that.
Yesterday night I was philosophize with myself , during a relaxing listening session , about how much could be boring this Natural & Neutral research.
It's true .. by a large majority .. the Audiophiles are searching for this result .. "Natural & Neutral" .. and the end justifies the means.
But when you get this or you're almost near .. the pleasure is only perceived or obtained by the software .. aka LP's or CD-rom's .. aka Music.
And sometimes the Music could be boring ...
So which is the solution?
Sincerely I dunno .. probably it's into the Tube world that's is often on the romantic side .. even at neutral and natural cost
I have been a great Tube fan some years ago when I had Jadis JA 80 and Klimo preamp .. I sold them when I decided to try Solid State and probably that was a pity!
Now I don't want to re-change all my hi-fi setup buying all tubes .. further I should be compelled to sell my Thiels too
But I could try adding a Tube Preamp .. just to aromatize the rest .. this could be a good idea .. isn't it?

But which tube preamp?
There are lotsa tube preamps that strive for the Neutral and Natural side .. I'm thinking to ARC , CJ , BAT etc.. and I don't need one of them .. I already own a very good natural and neutral preamp!

A good choice could be a Air Tight , Shindo , Supratek , Joule Electra .. but I have to pay attention to the "electrical marriage" with my two Parasound JC1's..

What do you think about my thoughts .. and any other idea about an Aromatic Tube Preamp.. Guys?
curio
opus88
529 posts
 
Hello Mapman: I had to smile(not sarcastically) a bit as I read your following statement in response to mine above. You said, "Yes, but if the system in fact is 'neutral', then you should get that live-like sound if that is how the recording was made." First, I think the word neutral is one of the most abused in audio. Nearly everything has colors or colorations, and especially reproduced sound. Electronic equipment at the recording site, in the audio shops and in one's home all attest to that. (Colorations are also imparted in/by concert halls and even in the open air, where temperature, humidity and wind all register their effect.)Though colorations are encountered either in a reproduced or live manner, there is still a considerable difference in listenability when experiencing each. I don't care to go into great detail on this issue, since it's been elaborated on before in many instances. I'll just say this: At live concerts, I consistently hear dynamic peaks as well as certain sounds of individual instruments with little or no irritation, sounds that otherwise and in considerable instances do irritate when they are reproduced through high quality(and very expensive) stereo equipment. "How the recording was made", replete with electronic devices and the colorations they impart, will not produce a mirror image of the sound that was generated and heard live. Granted, some recordings and equipment will provide a better approximation than other recordings and equipment. This aside, in a number of instances, I don't exactly like or care for some of the kind[s]of sound[s]produced by the recording process. If I can find frequent but not perfect satisfaction by mixing and matching stereo equipment,even, as you say, by "...attempting to correct for something [I]do not like in the recording..." so what? As you say, "Nothing wrong...if you have the tenacity and desire to make it work." And I'm pleased to say, I have made it work. Sure, not without the kind of effort many of us have gone through. What I want most is the kind of reproduced sound that comes closer to approximating what I hear seated at a live concert. For me, that doesn't mean "clean neutrality", but some "natural" coloration. Thank goodness we're able to choose our preferred illusion of sound.
pdreher's avatar
pdreher
828 posts
 
Ditto Ckoffend's recommendation of the Aesthetix Calypso. I sold mine to go with an integrated tube amp, but will likely go back to the Calypso if/when I go back to tube separates. Really a great preamp when used with the right NOS tubes (amperex white label 6922's & telefunken smooth plate 12AX7's). I also owned BAT VK30 & Joule LA-150, but preferred the Calypso by a wide margin.
onhwy61's avatar
onhwy61
4,163 posts
 
I can't imagine that the your system in the room you describe sounds neutral or natural. There's no way the Thiels can produce adequate bass or lower midrange to properly pressurize that room. I suspect what you hear is way too much upper midrange/treble info.

Obviously changing the electronics is not a solution. You could stick a hundred tubes into the system and it still won't sound natural. You need speakers that would work well in that specific room. I'm thinking something that can move a lot of air. You should consider the big VMPS towers, the large Legacy models, the Zu models with multiple bass drivers or the big PBN models.

I've expressed some strong opinions and there's always the possibility that I could be totally wrong, but I suggest you try the following experiment. It will cost you nothing but time and effort. Move your speakers so that they are within 1 to 2 feet of a rear wall in order to get some room reinforcement in the bass. Move your listening position such that it replicates your normal listening distance. Don't make any snap judgments. Give yourself some time to acclimate to the sound. You may have to play with the exact distance between the wall and the speaker to smooth out the bass. After you have a handle with the sound of this setup change your listening position to the wall opposite the speaker and have your head positioned within a foot or two of the wall. See how it sounds. In the end you may prefer your original setup, but the experiment will give you a glimpse of how your room will sound with the speakers coupled to the room rather than divorce from, which is your current setup.
shadorne's avatar
shadorne
7,333 posts
 
I'm in full agreement with Onhwy61, natural and neutral should be anything but boring - adding coloration only helps if the setup is inadequate. If everything is setup right then all you need to do is crank it a little for some exhilaration. Percussion re-produced realistically is energetic & dynamic & very loud.
mapman's avatar
mapman
15,679 posts
 
Definitely optimize the speaker placement in the room for bass response if not the case already.

Placement near rear wall should boost low end but may not be the only way to get a natural and neutral sound.

It is generally tougher to get it though with smaller speakers/drivers in a larger room especially if placed away from wall.

Some designs including omnis and planars may function optimally for bass as well as typical imaging and soundstage as much as a third or so into the room, but generally not too far from sidewalls.

It all really depends. You have to experiment to know for sure.

Definitely get the speaker placement optimized if not already before changing anything though...
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