Why will no other turntable beat the EMT 927?

Dear Dkarmeli: Thank's for your wide answer explanation.

++++ " it goes way beyond measurements " ++++++

agree, with today measurements we can't explain for sure all what we percieve or discern on almost any audio item but those measurements is a reference especially when we are talking on this kind of top quality performance level.

Of course that what is important is how deep an audio item " moves " you how well wake up our emotions/feelings but from this point of view, that as you said we can't measure, MUSIC it self has a mains characteristics that's to moves you even if you are hearing trhough a Walkman.

I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs.

++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++

When we make that statement IMHO that means: " end of history ".
There is no single argument to that " I like it ". It lost any proposal because any one of us are unique and what you like it could not like to other persons and the other way around too.

Facts/measurements does not cares on what we like it but in what's wrong or good and that today measurements can't explain what we heard in precise way does not means that that can't do it it's only to know what to measure and where to measure. Even those the TT typical measurements are good reference.

What if the 927 S/N is a mundane 75db or the w/F only 0.1%? what could told us these measurements?, plain and simple: that what we like are colorations/distortions away to be natural and higher that what we can hear trough other TTs.

At the end the whole subject is really complex and only testings in the same audio system the 927 against other 6-7 top TTs we could have a " true light " about and only if that subjective testing were made it by non-biased persons avoiding that: " I like it ".

About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks " .

Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ).

Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject.

Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about.

Don't you think?

Regrads and enjoy the music,
R.

Raul said,

"Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?. It can't hurt if we know about."

True, but the rub is in what is measured, and how it is measured. Let's use speed control as an example. I make a turntable that is "speed accurate" to at least one part per million, which is the theoretical limit that can be achieved with an idler type drive due to the inherent tracking error of an idler wheel. I know that sounds impressive, but what does it tell us? The answer is not much, really. Why not? That is because such a measurement is an average.

Here's a hypothetical scenario. Let's assume that a given record has twelve transients of the same character on one side; say a cymbal crash followed by a low organ note. And, let's say that the turntable slows down 2% when it enters the transient, and speeds up 2% when it leaves the transient going into the low note, but only for a millisecond. Now, you have a smear in the music, and no matter how small it might be, the turntable is performing less than than optimum. So much for one the part per million measurement even if that is the average accuracy, right?

So, how could the measurement be beneficial? It is useful only for comparison with lesser turntables. However, if you calculate the inertia of the platter, then it would be useful without making some comparison that may, or may not, be a fair one. The reason that an inertia measurement along with a speed measurement would be useful is because then one could predict what might happen when transients are encountered. Nonetheless, it wouldn't necessarily tell anyone how the turntables sounds when compared to another one. Ears are best for that.

That crazy scenario is one example, but there are so many variables to almost every aspect of a turntable that developing a standardized system of meaningful specifications is virtually impossible. I would welcome such an endeavor, though.

Dear Dkarmeli
I totally agree with your assessment of the SP10 MK3. However this is, IMO not a result of its design, the use of a servo, or DD. I believe it is the way it is built.
The tension, greyness and lack of ebb and flow, can be significantly mitigated. On top of this, contrary to most contemporary views, in its as built form, the SP10 is quite noisy, but not in the conventionally measured way. It produces noise that rides along with the music. This modulation noise can be dramatically reduced.
Can it be made to equal the EMT? I have no idea, what I do know is that it can be made considerably better than standard.

Many thanks

Mosin, Would you therefore dismiss any turntable with a light weight platter (and therefore a rather low moment of inertia) as a "contender", just on that basis alone? And if so, what is your cut-off point for "acceptable" inertia, in terms of platter mass? Or do you add in a factor based on intelligent use of friction, so the motor has a more constant opposing force, to partly mimic the effect of a very massive platter? (The 927 appears to have a "heavy" platter compared to that of other well loved idlers, but not in the league with some of the monster belt-drive platters I have seen, e.g., the Walker lead platter.)

There's them that just cannot ever be convinced about the possibilities of direct-drive, so hung up are they on a concept of the servo mechanism as a full-stop/full-go device that they cannot see past it. ANY turntable motor has to be able to respond instantaneously to the varying effects of stylus drag. Yes, lots of platter inertia helps but it cannot be the whole story.

Dear Rauliruegas, "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it " + "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?." +I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail?

The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!

- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."

EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.

- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."

I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.

- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"

The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.

- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."

The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.

-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++

What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that.