We argue because the alternative of pulling out a 45 and silencing the other party does not go down well with friends and family, whether ours or the former annoyance.
why do we argue?
I suppose it's human nature?
Not everyone can get along,at least all of the time.
Squablles occur in the best of families,sometimes over big issues, sometimes over small ones.
So why should the audio "family" be any different?
Some forums have gone to great pains to cleanse their sites and free them from confrontations between audiophiles who can't see eye to eye, or perhaps we should say, ear to ear.
But where's the harm in all that squabbling? Really?
If someone finds it offensive, then why continue to read it, like a moth drawn to the flame,if you think it's going to harm you, don't enter.
No one is making you.
Then if you feel you have to post your objections to objectional comments(who made you the boss?)then you are not the solution ,you're just adding to the problem.
Like bringing gasoline to put out the fire.
You're going to be on one side or the other,or perhaps you are the "let's kiss and make up type" "can't we all be friends?"audiophile who has only everyone's best wishes at heart.
There's always a "mom" to come between two fighting brothers isn't there,and you know she can't take sides,calling a truce is her job.
But until the real issues have been addressed, the argument is never over.
It's always there under the surface,just waiting to boil over given half the chance.Power cords one day, fuses the next, and demagging lp's? Please!
It usually starts in audio forums when some chump posts that a piece of something that cost more than it should, made an improvement that someone who wasn't there to hear it says it didn't.
Get the gist?
I did it, I heard it, I was there,who are you to tell me I didn't hear it, and how dare you call me dillusional?That's the response to the first response from the folks who know it just can't be real.
Surely if I am half a man, I'll have to make some sort of reply.And reply to the reply and on and on again and again.
I'll have to try to proove that I heard what I heard, but you need scientific proof.
Obviously I can't provide any, I am a chump, not a scientist, I bought the snake oil didn't I?
So on and on it goes and intensifies until enough is enough and two or more members of the family are banished from the fold.
The community all the better for it, or so it tells itself.
But is it?
If everything in this hobby is scrutinized to the point that if there isn't a scientific white paper to back up the claims, how much of what we take for granted today would be lost to the audio community at large?
Zip cord,stock giveaway cords of all srtipe would be all that we would have.There'd be no equipment stands or various footers, no isolation devices of the electrical and mechanical persuasion,no spikes,no fancy metals,in short there would be no aftermarket anything.
It would be a 100% snake free world,a totalitarian utopia for the less than feeble minded audiophiles that there are so many of. Those foolish folks who thrive on fairy dust need to be saved from their own foolish and wasteful ways.
At least that's the way I've seen it from my perspective.
I know it's too late to save me.Salvation passed me by decades ago.
Not everyone can get along,at least all of the time.
Squablles occur in the best of families,sometimes over big issues, sometimes over small ones.
So why should the audio "family" be any different?
Some forums have gone to great pains to cleanse their sites and free them from confrontations between audiophiles who can't see eye to eye, or perhaps we should say, ear to ear.
But where's the harm in all that squabbling? Really?
If someone finds it offensive, then why continue to read it, like a moth drawn to the flame,if you think it's going to harm you, don't enter.
No one is making you.
Then if you feel you have to post your objections to objectional comments(who made you the boss?)then you are not the solution ,you're just adding to the problem.
Like bringing gasoline to put out the fire.
You're going to be on one side or the other,or perhaps you are the "let's kiss and make up type" "can't we all be friends?"audiophile who has only everyone's best wishes at heart.
There's always a "mom" to come between two fighting brothers isn't there,and you know she can't take sides,calling a truce is her job.
But until the real issues have been addressed, the argument is never over.
It's always there under the surface,just waiting to boil over given half the chance.Power cords one day, fuses the next, and demagging lp's? Please!
It usually starts in audio forums when some chump posts that a piece of something that cost more than it should, made an improvement that someone who wasn't there to hear it says it didn't.
Get the gist?
I did it, I heard it, I was there,who are you to tell me I didn't hear it, and how dare you call me dillusional?That's the response to the first response from the folks who know it just can't be real.
Surely if I am half a man, I'll have to make some sort of reply.And reply to the reply and on and on again and again.
I'll have to try to proove that I heard what I heard, but you need scientific proof.
Obviously I can't provide any, I am a chump, not a scientist, I bought the snake oil didn't I?
So on and on it goes and intensifies until enough is enough and two or more members of the family are banished from the fold.
The community all the better for it, or so it tells itself.
But is it?
If everything in this hobby is scrutinized to the point that if there isn't a scientific white paper to back up the claims, how much of what we take for granted today would be lost to the audio community at large?
Zip cord,stock giveaway cords of all srtipe would be all that we would have.There'd be no equipment stands or various footers, no isolation devices of the electrical and mechanical persuasion,no spikes,no fancy metals,in short there would be no aftermarket anything.
It would be a 100% snake free world,a totalitarian utopia for the less than feeble minded audiophiles that there are so many of. Those foolish folks who thrive on fairy dust need to be saved from their own foolish and wasteful ways.
At least that's the way I've seen it from my perspective.
I know it's too late to save me.Salvation passed me by decades ago.
- ...
- 120 posts total
Quite the perspective there, Uru975. You forgot to mention there would be no one to argue with anymore. It reminds me of the old Gahan Wilson cartoon:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_E-4d6l_7SXg/S13fSHjSQ7I/AAAAAAAAAGM/qhPZJJrbpWw/s1600-h/gahanwilson.jpg All the best, Nonoise |
07-05-12: BryoncunninghamGreat points once again, Bryon, IMO. Re the first point, I think it is worth noting that the scientific progress you refer to occurs in part as a result of experimentation in which meticulous and disciplined efforts are made to eliminate the possibility that the results may be the consequence of unrecognized extraneous variables. And the results are then further confirmed by peer review, independent experimental corroboration, etc. Early on in this thread (in my post of 6-11-12) I referred to how easy it is for extraneous variables to produce misleading results when it comes to assessing audio products and tweaks, especially when lengthy breakin periods are required for the assessments. IMO that is one reason that reports of counter-intuitive and technically inexplicable results should be questioned. In a civil as opposed to argumentative manner, of course :-) Another reason, btw, being to discuss the system dependencies that may be involved, and the likelihood that the results will be applicable to other systems. 07-05-12: MapmanI'm not sure that is as true in audio as it is in most other fields of endeavor. For one thing, my perception has been that there is a tendency for those who experiment extensively with tweaks, fuses, cables, power cords, etc. to disproportionately focus their experiments on choices that are at the upper end of the price range they can afford. Their experiments will result in a choice that works well for them, and that experience will be reported. That will in turn inspire others to try out the same or similar products, with good results in many cases. The end result being that a self-reinforcing belief system evolves. But given that the mechanisms by which many of these products provide sonic benefits are often speculative or not understood at all, at least in a way that makes sense when analyzed quantitatively, how do we know that similarly extensive experimentation focused on choices at much lower price points would not have yielded comparably good results, and better value? Best regards, -- Al |
Al, I like and agree with your first point. Externalities are always at play whether intended or not. To do something in a tightly controlled environment can negate its results in the real world where variables exist. With so much in play, in so many systems, what is claimed to work (benefit) has to be repeatable, to some degree. I also agree with your 2nd assessment and Mapmans, if that's possible. Broad applications are general in nature and degrees of improvement will vary from system to system. They would still hold true, to some degree. And your question as to whether some less expensive alternative exists, if the principle is the same but the ingredients are of lesser quality, then the benefit can escape scrutiny given the smaller nature of improvement. It could be chalked up to imagination. (there, I said it) :-) There has to be a cost/improvement relationship point at which the benefit justifies the tweak. It could be why some hear a bigger improvement from Furutech fuses compared to HiFi Tuning fuses. I wouldn't know since that's beyond my pay grade (which further backs up your point). All the best, Nonoise |
07-05-12: AlmargI agree. A certain amount of skepticism is healthy. But so is a certain amount of open-mindedness. The trick is to balance the two, which isnt easy. I will say, Al, you always strike me as achieving a good balance between the skepticism and open-mindedness. I tend to oscillate between the two extremes. As a result, I experiment with a lot of tweaks, only to conclude that many of them don't do much of anything. Which brings me to my perception has been that there is a tendency for those who experiment extensively with tweaks, fuses, cables, power cords, etc. to disproportionately focus their experiments on choices that are at the upper end of the price range they can afford. Their experiments will result in a choice that works well for them, and that experience will be reported. That will in turn inspire others to try out the same or similar products, with good results in many cases. The end result being that a self-reinforcing belief system evolves.This is a fair comment, IMO. Looking back at my list of tweaks, I would say that there is very little correlation between price and performance, at least in my system. Ive been starting to sense that for some time, which is why I no longer buy $2K interconnects or $1K power cables. And lately Ive been having fun experimenting with DIY tweaks, some of which have a fantastic price/performance ratio, like these --DIY anti-diffraction felt surrounds for tweeters --DIY shielding, both internal and external --DIY crossovers The materials for felt surrounds is dirt cheap, around $25. The materials for DIY shielding can be a bit more expensive than that, but still nowhere near the cost of some of the tweaks sold by manufacturers. And although crossover parts can be very expensive, you dont have to spend a fortune to get a big improvement in SQ. The point is that I agree with you, Al, that some people (myself included) spend too much on tweaks, and that the money could be used to buy better equipment, DIY alternatives, or dinner with your wife. As far as the self-reinforcing belief system surrounding the world of tweaks, I like to imagine that my periodic fits of skepticism purge my brain of hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo, chicanery, and other forms of nonsense. But that itself may be a self-reinforcing belief system. :-) Bryon |
- 120 posts total