what is the proper protocol

07-23-06: Viridian
Tvad, I find the "I will do it because it was done to me." justification to be without merit.

That's your issue, not mine, but I respect your opinion. While I use my past experience as a guide, I also am quite open to working with a buyer to reach a workable solution to us both. I'm always open to compromise, and I hope my trading partners are as well.

In cases in which the shipping company has lost the item, the seller must offer a refund to the buyer immediately and then file his loss claim with the shipper.

The word offer follows the word must. I find this just as important, and I interpret it to mean that while a seller must offer a refund, a buyer has the option of declining to accept the refund until the item has been found or until the seller has been paid for his/her loss. Or, it opens the door to a number of other reasonable compromises along the spectrum...like partial payment with the balance paid upon the seller's receipt of the insurance payment, for example.

That is what we are required to do as sellers on this site.
Viridian (Threads | Answers)

Again, I view these quidelines as suggestions not edicts, but that's my interpretation. The reason I have this opinion is that when I registered on Audiogon four years ago, I am reasonably certain I did not have to agree to these guidelines as terms of use of the Audiogon website. Now, it's been a while since I registered. Perhaps my memory has faded. Some newer registrants might be of some help here.

Interestingly, we approach this issue from different angles, and yet we both have outstanding feedback (at least 50% of my feedback is as a seller). To me, that demonstrates that there is more than one correct method to achieve a successful outcome.

Tvad, you left out one small bit when you paraphrased me, "with all due respect." That is important, I have only the greatest respect for you from our postings here on these forums.

Tvad, you left out one small bit when you paraphrased me, "with all due respect." That is important, I have only the greatest respect for you from our postings here on these forums.
Viridian (Threads | Answers)

Likewise.

Thank you.

Viridian, I'm with you 100%. I'm not surprised regarding the disparity of opinions: this is Audiogon.

warre :)

well. I think I already spent my quota of opinion on this thread, but I think this is worthwhile discussion and need to add a few more . . .

Viridian's reference to the FAQ's and the general terms of use of this site is right on. Everyone should check them out. Read it all - there's a lot of really good info there. If you read the section on "Shipping Policy", it's pretty clear. Below is the relevant text, and the URL for the entire statement:

Shipping policy
Shipping a Sold Item:
The buyer and seller will determine which party is responsible for paying the shipping charges. Regardless of this determination all items shipped will be F.O.B.* destination. In other words it will ALWAYS be the responsibility of the seller to guarantee that items shipped will be as described and fully functional upon arrival. The seller will further be responsible to insure each package for at least the amount the buyer has paid for the item.

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/faq.pl?Sellers/Shipping&1065032072&actg#1

This says it's the "Policy". A policy is somewhat more than guidelines. Of course if you read the terms of use, Audiogon has enough disclaimer included so as to render them essentially non-binding (ie in my layman's point of view). I hope/think we can all agree though that the disclaimer is done for liability protection, and that since we all agreed to follow the rules when we sign up, these are the terms that should be followed, and what we expect of each other.

Sellers who think their responsibility ends when they receive their money are pretty common on ebay, and IMO they are simply saying out loud that they aren't trust worthy. As such the only way I would do business with them is if the deal was simply so good it's worth gambling on.

Finally, I think there are reasonable positions taken above with respect to when the refund is given. The key is for buyer and seller to keep cool, be patient, communicate clearly and in all cases act in good faith. I think this one may be hard to cookie cutter in a discussion, or in guidelines. Further, I know there are commercial establishments who will follow the practice as Tvad described, and there are those that would immediately refund. I would say in general I would probably be more comfortable doing return business with the business in the latter example, all other things being equal. In other words, this is an issue of service quality, not necessarily performance.