Hey k4rstar,
You crack me up! There is no high frequency "roll-off", so the way you asked the question is based on a false and misleading assumption.
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Hey rbstehno,
My oh my, ignorance has no boundaries in this fun hobby of high-end audio.
1) This NOS Phillips DAC chip is extremely held in high esteem by many listeners/designers because if used in the right way it offers an analog perspective regarding timbres/colors and great 3D imaging compared to more recent DAC chips. Have you ever personally heard any of these "medieval" based DACs?
2) I have had in my system DACs from DCS (full stack) and PS Audio's DAC, along with the top notch DACs mentioned in the review (Berkeley Audio Design Alpha DAC Series MQA and the Playback Design Dream Player MPS-8) both can do DSD/MQA formats. I agree that the higher resolution formats sound different,but necessary better. So much "kool aid" has been drink believing higher and higher sampling rates get you superior sound, just ain't necessarily so.
I always find it amazing when someone comes to the conclusion that a piece of gear can't be any good, even though they have never heard with their own ears. |
Hey k4star,
I have no idea were you came up with the assumption that non-oversampling/upsampling DACS have a 3dB loss at 20khz. The Lab 12 DAC1 SE had an extended/airy/ detailed top end in the three systems it was tested in. |
Hi agriculturist,
As I stated in my review the Lab 12 DAC1 SE completely out performed my Concert Fidelity-040 hybrid DAC, my reference for over five years, across all sonic parameters.
If you loved the sound of the Concert Fidelity, you would be very enamored with the sound of the Lab 12 DAC. |
Hi mrdon,
I never comment on things I'm ignorant about. I have never heard your Prism Sound Callia DAC. If your totally satisfied with what it does for your system, then by all means enjoy it.
I have no idea what other DACs you have heard/auditioned in your system. I know I have auditioned some of the highest regarded DACs, regardless of price, to come to my conclusion regarding the Lab 12's performance. So, can I "guarantee" you will like it better then your present DAC, is kinda a silly question. If you share what other DACs you have listened to, I then could give a reasonable perspective of what you might expect from the Lab 12 that would be different and maybe better then your present piece. |
To address some of the concerns raised by Audio Doctor NJ:
1) As a professional reviewer I do get the industry peak at buying at a reduced price the piece of equipment I have evaluated. However, for you to imply that I'm "on the take" or am beholden to any company is an attack on my honesty/integrity. You have ever right to make this claim. Anything I have ever written as a reviewer or GON member is based totally on how I hear what a piece of gear has to offer, not because someone is buying me off.
2) Your response to my opinion on this DAC reminds me of the same BS that was leveled at me regarding my review and GON posts on the great Tekton Design Speakers. Companies, retail stores, and some owners of other gear hate when a competing product comes out for a lot less money then their's which is at least as good if not even a better performer. I don't know what DACs you sell, but I'll bet you are not a Lab 12 retail dealer, therefore you have the personal interest to protect your sells, not me.
3) I had been a long time Gon member way before I got into reviewing. I consider this my "home" to share and help/befriend other members looking for ways to improve the sound of their system. My greatest pleasure is to share, through my reviews/posts killer performing/well built gear that cost pennies on the dollar compared to the "big boy" companies that can afford to advertise and inflate their prices to bizarre levels. My role model for this is Sam Tellich, the Audio Cheapskate, who is now retired from professional reviewing. It's been a joy to review and share information on Tekton Design, AricAudio, Linear Tube Audio, Backert Labs, all great people and gear for music lovers sold at sane prices for blue collar folks like me. |
I left out one more comment that was leveled at me by the boys at the Audio Doctor NJ.
Since my review on the Double Impact Speakers there has been over seven five star reviews all over the place agreeing how terrific Eric Alexander's break through designs are and how they compete with anything on the market. I guess I'm part of the "DARK WEB" conspiracy to get you and the president. |
Hi Spencer,
My name is Terry London and I review for hometheaterreview.com. Yes, my AudioGon name is teajay, however in real life all that know me well call me TJ, not Terry. It's been a known fact from the beginning here who I am and who I write for. |
Hey Al,
Truth be told, I never turn off SS amps including the XA-25, except if I'm going on a long trip. Yes, the XA-25 comes mainly back on song after about a hour. However, to get to the pristine level of performance it can offer takes a lot more time in my experience.
I had a pair of Threshold SA-1 mono-blocks that remained turned on for close to 20 years and the caps were still good and going strong. I believe that my never turning off the amps the caps last longer and are less likely to dry out. |
Hey Celander,
The way you shared your opinion, "should clearly state their conflict of interests" is setting up a false/invalid assumption. I have no "conflict of interests, I'm not censored by the man I write for, I do not have to protect any companies, and there is no alternative motive (s), just sharing my opinions about gear I listen to/review to readers here.
Yes, reviewers to get a "industrial accommodation" regarding price if we purchase the review demo. If it's a small boutique company that has a very small profit ratio the discount is much less then a much larger well known/established company. The pricing follows just about what an importer or retailer would pay for a piece of gear. However, I don't agree that anyone, including a reviewer, "should/must" disclose what they payed for what they purchased. |
Hey celander,
You do say interesting things in very peculiar ways. To address your statements:
1) I believe most people in this hobby know that people in the industry, including professional reviewers, get discounts on what they buy for their personal use. This is not breaking news.
2) If I had to pay full price I still would have purchased the review pieces that brought my system and enjoyment of music to a higher level. My great interest is finding killer products for reasonable amounts of money.
3) My definition of value is build quality/performance compared to price and if it out performs much more expensive pieces, it's a great bargain.
4) I do not understand your statement at all regarding "investors in boutique audio companies" The owners of these companies have nothing to do regarding the reviewing process. For a matter of fact, the boutique companies that I have historically setup reviews with did not seek me out at all. I got wind of their products and was highly motivated to review their gear. The small guys cannot pay for the slick advertising, the website I review for does not tie in advertising dollars as way of getting a review done at all, therefore they are excited and take the risk of a bad review to get the public to know about their product.
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Hey snopro,
I'm on the list to get the SIT3 for review. Everyone, that I trust their ears liked it very much. However, it's a very different amp compared to the XA-25 regarding what speakers you can drive and control over the bottom end and overall dB levels.
My SIT2 is a wonderful amplifier, however it has to be used with the right speaker to really be able to shine. The SIT3 has more watts then the SIT2, so it's more flexible regarding what you can drive with it. |
Hey janehamble,
The Lab12 DAC that we are discussing on this thread is the newer version called the SE. I do believe that the DAC chips and basic overall design is the same, with better/different internal parts in the circuit in critical places that improve the sound. For more details contact Audio Archon or Lab 12 directly. |
Hey celander,
Here's the answers to your questions:
1) I scored my NOS CCA 1962 Siemens from Brent Jesse.
2) All the details regarding how the DAC sounded/performed presented in the review apply to Lab12 with the stock tubes and the Siemens.
3) Yes, with the Siemens you get a little more of an "organic" sound then with the stock tubes, but either way the DAC sounds wonderful.
4) Mike Kay (Audio Archon) has at least three different excellent NOS 6922 tubes that he can provide, along with the standard stock tube, to tailor the sound to your personal taste. However, with the stock tube it's a great musical presentation. |
Hey d2girls,
Why don't you give Mike Kay (Audio Archon) a call to see if he can setup some arrangement for you to audition the Lab12. |
If my take is correct about simna's experience with the Lab 12, "makes me wanna keep listening", I think it's mainly a thumbs up perspective. I do not experience a loss of leading edge focus, which I think simna means when he refers to "edge" on certain music. A lot of digital sounds somewhat "hard" because the leading edge of the harmonic is "razor sharp" compared to a more natural presentation that listeners often refer to as having an analog quality. Think metal/ceramic vs silk dome tweeters.
However, my hunch is that if he tube rolled in brands like Mazda/Telefunken/Seimens he would get more of a "harder" sound that he is looking for.
Redphu72, if you contact Mike Kay, Audio Archon, he can provide you the information you are seeking. He is the North American retailer for Lab 12 gear.. |
Hey simna,
To answer your two questions:
1) As I stated in my review when you go from the stock tube to something like the NOS CCA Siemens tube you get across the sonic board improvement (transparency, soundstaging/air around instruments, improved tonality/color density, dynamics and more liquidity/ease).
2) I use the term "organic" to mean that that piece of gear, or and overall system, sounds less like "mechanical/electric" device and more like the illusion of music. I also use the term "HiFi-ish" in the same breath, meaning it sounds like a great sound system, but not like natural music. |
Hey keithtexas,
I was the first American reviewer to have the fun to review the Lab12-SE DAC. There were a few, including the monoandstereo piece, European reviews that were raves about the DACs performance. I believe that Lab12 has done subtle changes since the DAC got on the market. However, you would have to contact them for the details on this. |
I had received last week an Email from a GON member regarding his experience with the LAB 12 DAC.
His experience of it was, " I've tried 4 DACS in the past 2 months and the LAB 12 is definitely my favorite." I asked him if he would be willing to share more information about what DACs he had auditioned compared to the LAB 12 and share on this thread. He said he would when he gets back from traveling this week. Hope, he does, I'm glad he likes the Lab 12, but am very interested what other types of DACs he compared it to. |
Just wanted to share an amazing experience with the LAB 12 DAC concerning rolling tubes.
The type of tube the Lab 12 DAC normally uses is a 6922. When I rolled 6922 tubes it definitely improved the performance compared to the stock tube that Lab 12 ships with the unit. A NOS CCA Siemens gold pin was my favorite of all the 6922's I tried in my system.
Now, because of a different piece of gear that I'm reviewing that uses a 396 type tube I learned that a 396 can be used in place of a 6922 by using a very inexpensive (around 20 dollars) tube socket adapter. The 396 that I rolled in is a WE396A D getter JW Military version which for my ears offers some of the best timbres/colors, transparency, 3D images, and overall space/air around individual players. These tubes are easy to obtain and are not very expensive (around 50 to 80 dollars).
This tube modification took the LAB 12 DAC to even a higher level of musicality and the illusion of real music through my system. This change of tube type added what I would describe as a SET quality to the sound, rich timbres, "meat on the bones" images, and a liquidity that allows you to relax into the music. I would assume if your system is very warm and somewhat "slow" to begin with, this could be to much of a good thing. It always comes down to synergy with your other gear and of course personal taste. If you own the Lab 12 DAC you owe it to yourself to run this experiment, it costs pennies and gives a totally new sound with this DAC. |
Hey lordcloud,
Could you describe in more detail what you mean by, "doesn't sound like a tube at all". There are sonic differences between the same type of tube and different companies "house sound" (Mullards, Bugle Boys, Telefunkins, TungSol etc), but don't understand what your description means.
MHDT Labs designer recommends his favorite NOS tubes to use his DACS. You can 396 or 5670 tubes to flavor the sound of their DACS to your personal taste. However, he does not mention the tube you are using in your DAC. |
Frankly gentlemen,
I did not start this thread to argue over specs or other DACS in comparison to the Lab 12. Just wanted to inform readers that the Lab12 offers reference level performance at a reasonable price point.
I'm kinda tired of the same old argument regarding measurements can tell you how a piece of gear will sound. I have had in-house many pieces that had great measurements and sounded like crap. Others did not measure great but offered terrific performance.
Finally, since one of you loves the Benchmark DAC performance, I had one in for review, found it so sterile and mechanical sounding, yes it was burn-in, that I refused to waste my time on listening to it. So, please this hobby boils down to synergy and personal taste, not measurements. |
Hey mzkmxcv,
I did start this thread, so I'll ask you politely to please start your own post regarding your ridiculous position about measurements being more important, or that they can predicate, how a piece of gear will sound to a listener.
You are entrenched in your position, so it's useless to debate with you. My purpose at starting this thread was to share information on the Lab 12 and it was leading to positive sharing until you hijacked it into this meaningless BS. Go start your own thread so you can rattle on about this "dead horse" debate or subject, so we can go back to the intent of my thread. |
Hey bigkidz,
Take a look at my review on the Lab12 at hometheaterreview.com for the details about its performance. I sold off a 10K DAC for the Lab12 that had been my reference, and compared the Lab12 to three other highly regarded DACS ranging in price from 14K to 20K and the Lab 12 was at least as good and bettered them on certain parameters. I'm very lucky being a professional reviewer. I get to hear many pieces in the context of my systems, instead of a showroom or at an audio show were you really can't get a take on a specific piece of gear for the obvious reasons. |
