Alternate AC power frequency.. Higher than 60Hz
I, for one, have never heard of changing AC frequency, and though it sounds interesting, the tone of your post is off-putting. Since you don't want me to educate you totallyperhaps you should just PM the best educated members of Audiogon, like Almarg or Atmasphere, and save yourself from undue concern. B |
So long and thanks for all the fish.At the start of this year I came back to answer one question no one seemed to know. Having done that I made the mistake of hanging around. Now I realize that was an error. So I say goodby, I have nothing to gain hanging around this place, and nothing more to contribute.Goodby. |
Sorry to see you go (again) @elizabeth I think despite our best efforts, something is often lost in the process of communicating by written messages. I don't think @gdnrbob meant to be nasty- but found your prerequisite for some knowledge off putting. Now you are going to make me research this (which is a good thing). Stay happy and inquisitive--it's what we are here for, not just the toil and tumult. |
Elizabeth, you are always a pleasure and forward thought provoking questions. Thank you. Of course, it may seem obvious, but AC synchronous motors, such as those used in many turntables lock to the mains frequency and will not spin at the correct speed if the line frequency is not at 60 cycles in the US and 50 cycles across the pond. |
I called PS Audio and asked about stuff. Emailed Paul
McGowan.The P20 does not do higher Hz. It is designed to be very efficient at 60HZ and can not be altered.So as far as I know, the only way to try a higher Hz AC power are old PS Audio units P-300 P-600 P-1200 that happened to have an alternate circuit board allowing Hz changed 60 up to 120. |
Elizabeth, The link below is a discussion of why the aviation industry has adopted a standard of 400 Hz for AC power. Briefly, the use of 400 Hz allows a device such as a motor to operate more efficiently, which, in turn, allows it to be smaller and lighter--characteristics always desirable in airplanes. But transmitting 400 Hz power over long distances creates greater loses, so power companies have adopted a 60 (or 50) Hz standard. While certainly not an expert in this matter, it seems pretty clear to me that devices are designed to use specific frequencies, and while one might be able to alter the frequency somewhat and get away with it, this can only be taken so far. You certainly wouldn't want to run an electric clock designed for 60 Hz on 120 Hz, or even 50 Hz. And as Viridian points out, our precious turntables are very picky about the frequency of the power they are fed! As I hope you have gathered from some of the later comments above, you have many fans here and we would hate to see you go! I don't think it's my imagination but over the past years the discourse here has become rather coarse, and it seems most posters seem to care only that they are perceived as "right," and insult and belittle anyone who dares contradict them. [And I am not (rpt not) thinking SOLELY of our friend GK, although he may be the exemplar]. We have so few people of the female persuasion here that your departure would likely thin their ranks by 25% or more. So try to ignore the jerks, and stick around. And let's all try to rise above the petty sniping, and make this site a more pleasant place. http://www.fcxinc.com/why-the-aviation-industry-operates-on-400-hz-power/ |
| Post removed |
THANKS rel, that is an interesting link!I wonder if there are any smaller 400Hz devices I could acquire from the aviation industry? I will keep that in mind.As for the fact turntables use 60Hz.. yes, that is an easy solve problem.I almost left for good. But reading the positive posts here made me stay. |
rel wrote, “As I hope you have gathered from some of the later comments above, you have many fans here and we would hate to see you go! I don’t think it’s my imagination but over the past years the discourse here has become rather coarse, and it seems most posters seem to care only that they are perceived as "right," and insult and belittle anyone who dares contradict them. [And I am not (rpt not) thinking SOLELY of our friend GK, although he may be the exemplar].” If you’re referring to your friend and humble scribe I’ve never insulted or belittled Lizzie, ever. Are you a half-wit? |
I would never experiment with different frequency power absent some clear permission by the builder of the gear I would be plugging into such a power supply. I know that some manufacturers have power supplies that convert the incoming AC to a much higher frequency. I believe that is the case with my Levinson No. 32 linestage. I think its separate power supply box supplies 400 hz power (at least to some circuits) because the higher frequency recharges capacitors faster which means less droop in output from high instantaneous demand. But, how would the unit react when it is fed some higher frequency power? I have no idea, and would not want to find out by trial and error. |
I am fond of Geoff (in a kind if well yeah he is weird, but fun, way) . And any banter between us I hope is taken as lighthearted. I agree with larryi about not taking chances with expensive gear. And why I am not plugging my new $7000 box into the PS Audio P-600 I use at 111Hz. I do have several other digital bits plugged into the higher AC Hz, but all of them are cheap or old and reliable, or used bought cheap.There are warnings about ’digital power supplies’ (Confusing since that is not a regular power supply for digital gear, but any ’digital’ power supply for any gear) not being happy on a higher input AC.I found a Behringer DEQ2496 really sounded worse in 111Hz than on 60. And that my Sony 555ES changer quit working, Mainly due to overheating, so as soon as it was back on 60Hz, it was just fine.. So yeah there can be problems. And my guess is, the problems for a manufacturer to build and market a regenerator capable of outputting higher AC Hz far outweighed the pluses. As far As I can tell Paul McGowan likes 400Hz, but will not make one for commercial sale. And most likely due to endless questions, complaints and more questions. Then the liability issues.. I Googled 400Hz and airplane and found a bunch of info and products including ones to use on the ground with aircraft that use 120V AC to make a variety if AC voltages at 400Hz (including 120V) So if I or anyone else was interested. I think that would be the way to go. |
Although I have little to contribute to this particular thread, and some may say any thread, I did consider leaving myself but there are good and well meaning people here. There is always the odd one out, but I am now trying to look at each post for what it is and not imagine anything personal. I woke up to myself when I recently went through a hard time and now I know where I am going I am less sensitive to what is said about me, more sensitive of what I am saying, and even tolerating GK! Elizabeth, I for one have enjoyed your posts as you do bring a perspective from the better gender side and you write intelligently. Glad to hear you are staying, even if perhaps like me, scanning the threads to see if there is an item of interest or something I can contribute. |
I have a P300, but don't even use the Multiwaves, just use the sine wave, used to use the P1 setting. I remember when John Atkinson had one he ran his Levinson preamp at 90 Hz. One thing I do appreciate is that until recently I had 126v on the power line. So I could run the P300 at 120v. But we had a major power outage, last month,25,000 in the city, 899, in my area. Yup, they had a robo call after the power came back on telling me it was 899. When I got the multi tester out we were down to 117v. Now you have me thinking it is about time I check it.I did notice when I was pushing the volts up from 117 to 120, it was running even hotter than usual, so I dropped it down to 117v. Between using a tube preamp, CJ CT5 and a Lindemann 825 DAC with a separate power supply. I just don't feel comfortable with upping the Hz. And years ago when I did try it, I didn't hear any improvements. Actually they used to recommend it for controlling speed on some turntables, but then you have 3 unused outlets. |
The PS audio P1000 like I have can alter the frequency. I did try the higher frequencies to 110 and my Bryston BP 17 preamp got hot. On digital I think it helped some maybe. Does anyone know why a preamp would run hot. It only did that one time and I have had the frequency turned up since but now I'm conerned I could shorten the life of my preamp. Maybe I should call Bryston. They flip flopped on power conditioners years ago saying that they engineered all that is needed to filter out AC line impurities. Now they sell power line conditioners! Lol. I think any manufacturer will tell you don't experiment with the frequency. Why? 1. Because of products being damaged 2. Their product is engineered well enough that a higher frequency has no benefits. 3. They would rather have your stereo dollars go towards buying their products and not someone else's!!! |
Hard to say why companies do not want folks experimenting? My guess is they made it and know it does just fine as is, So why fool around, And then folks blame the company when fooling around screws it up! Same for all tweaks. The main place I use the higher frequency had been my old bought $250 used DA, and the $40 bought used five disc CD changers. Not much money on the table. On my own Bryston BP-26 I have not tried the higher Hz AC. but I have tried both 'Technical power'/ balanced power 60V/60V and normal 120V/0V from my Furman conditioner. The balanced power does also make the Bryston a little warmer. and the sound has greater clarity but slightly leaner. vs normal AC. I have my Marantz Sa-10 connected to the AC via the 'Technical power' 60V/60V from my Furman REF 20i ... this means the HOT line is only 60V but the 'Neutral' line is also 60V (in the same way in US homes 240 is split and is 120V hot and 120V neutral to produce a total of 240V) Some devices have trouble with balanced power. Particularly tube with direct heater (so I have read.. I have no experience, but have run my own tube preamps with balanced power, no problems, just the same slightly leaner cleaner sound with 60V/60V.) |
| Post removed |
| Post removed |
The higher rail voltages with higher AC frequency erik_s mentions is a theory. One that would need to be tested to see if it is true. But in my opinion, the theory is faulty. There is a difference (and i know you know too) between voltage and amperage. Beefier power supplies offer more amperage at the exact same voltage. Lots of upgraded power supplies are offered for electronics, without endless 'overload' dying of equipment (if it did die, the result would be hotly discussed here) So I have to say your theory, theoretically in my thinking about it, is wrong. I would agree there might be higher rail amperage.(Depending on the design of the power supply). But as I wrote, that is something plenty of folks do to tweak the equipment to sound better all the time.The voltage is not going to change. |
| Post removed |
I deleted my post as I must read more reference materials. I may have been confusing two different uses of similar terms. I leave you with this instead, which I am still digesting: https://www.edn.com/design/components-and-packaging/4369085/Using-a-power-transformer-at-a-frequency... It seems my memory of power vs. f may have been backwards, but using power supplies designed for one Hz with vastly different Hz seems bad. |
eric, the link was a good read. Mainly discussing using a transformer under two problematic conditions. Transformer made for 60Hz used at 50Hz, and one made for use at 400Hz (airplane Hz) used at 60/50. or reversed, using a made for 50/60Hz at 400Hz.(which are the only ’standard’ Hz usages at this time)There are problems with using a 60Hz designed transformer at 400Hz The wire used on each type is different, and the thinner wire in the 60Hz design is not suitable in 400Hz operation.(from a manufacturers standpoint) I do not know if 110 Hz is too much. (400Hz is 6.666 times the 60Hz operation, where 110 is less than 2 times. So that is a difference the article does not address) Clearly from my own use it may, or may not be a problem. (I used it mainly with digital gear, a DAC, no problem, One brand changer, no problem. But the Sony 555ES changer did overheat enough to shut down, where the Sony SCD9ES also no problem.) The 555 is a multichannel and the chassis is STUFFED full, no open space at all in there. So thanks for the link. ADDED and knowing the Marantz SA-10 transformer is sealed in a canister, I would think it a bad idea to run the Marantz at a higher Hz, Just sayin'.Plus I just turned down the Hz to 90Hz. that is only half again the rated Hz for the US based transformer. |
elizibeth, I usually just read the post my writing skills aren't up to the task of public communication and my posting have always created cause for many to feel the need to give me English, spelling, grammar and punctuation lessons when I post, all free of charge :). I have the same P600 and have run it at 90hertz, also frequently at P1 for many years. My stuff is old but it was new back when I got the P600 and now everything is old, like me, vintage and still working. My stuff is Musical fidelity CD and DAC, the DAC is a tri vista and it has tubes, I think two, but so far no problems with it. My large Advents need all the help they can get! The sound you hear is exactly what I hear but I attribute the "slightly leaner" sound to less bass extension at the higher hertz but yes to the better clarity overall, even the bass but with less extension. 90 looses some of that clarity but it will extend the bass. IMHO |
My P300 has been sitting in mothballs for several years now after I got a Premier Power Plant. But I do recall playing around with the multi wave form shapes and the frequencies, some were cool, others, blah, but I always settled back on the standard boring 60 Hz sine. The PPP has a multiwave button and when I A/B, I don't know, it's different but not better. So standard boring, clean, quiet AC is all I want and it sounds great. |
