Randy,
Yes, that's the arm. The sound was really clean. I'm wondering if I can try that with a couple of my tonearms?
Thanks.
Norman |
I have a Grace 747 on my Dual 1229 and a SME 3009 on the Garrard 301. It doesn't work. I played with them both all night. I will say though, to my surprise that leaving the antiskate off sounds really good. I can see however that the stylus is gravitating to the center spindle and that can't be good for the cartridge assembly.
I also tried it using the same cartridge and still wasn't able to get it to track like the AR.
I have always used antiskate but I can now see an argument for leaving it off.
N.
|
totem395,
I am really intrigued by this. I have been looking for documentation on how they addressed the skating issue back then. I have a SME 3009 Improved, of course with the anti skate. I am guessing that no one was really concerned about it then?
Wondering now how many run their turntables without anti skate dialed in?
N
|
rotarius,
I agree with your statement and have always used antiskate I am just surprised that the AR tonearm didn't appear to need it. I could see no discernible skating, which I can easily see when I remove the antiskate from my tonearms.
And, to my surprise the old AR sounded very good.
N.
|
stringreen,
I am guessing from you comments that you don't use antiskate? When I removed the anitskate from my two tonearms, the sound changed. It was very good, but I would have to really do a lot of comparing to state that it sounded better. I can see though, given the difference in sound why some might decide to leave it off.
My friend with the AR, said that in some literature from AR that they mention that the skating force changes throughout the play of the record which makes sense. Given that it is impossible then to continually correct the skating force throughout the entire record they decided not to use it on their turntables.
I really hadn't thought of it that way, but after seeing how my stylus pulls to the center spindle with the skating force off, I just can't bring myself to leave the skating force off.
Remarkably, the old AR arm didn't respond like my Grace and SME. It looked good when tracking.
Norman
|
pryso In spite of such limitations, some older tables such as the AR-XA are
still capable of providing a satisfying musical experience, just as you
learned. Excellent comment and I agree. Norman |
Al,
Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I find that on my Dual 1229 / Grace 747 setup (Denon 103) that I too can easily find a place when adjusting the anti-skate where there is no perceptible deflection of the cantilever, but on my Garrard 301 / SME 3009 setup I can't. This one is also using a Denon 103.
I set my anti-skate by playing a blank clean record side (one of Stereophiles). What I do is play the record and set the arm down after making a crude anti-skate adjustment. Then depending on the direction of the arm I adjust the anti-skate to where at any point on the record I can raise and lower the arm without any pull inward or outward.
When using the above method on the Garrard / SME setup, I am only able to get the anti-skate adjusted to where I can raise and lower the stylus near the center or middle of the playing surface. Perhaps the SME needs a tune up?
Norman
|
And that is why designers use a spring or magnet for antiskate in many
of the tonearms. It is to vary the amount of the bias force as the arm
gets closer to the spindle. rotarius, If you can flash back far enough, My Dual 1229's original tonearm used the spring method. It was so easy to set up. Unfortunately it was damaged decades ago in a move and so I replaced it with the Grace 747. I wasn't aware until your post that the anti-skate (when using magnets or springs) varied in bias force throughout the record. That to me would be the logical method to use in a tonearm. Norman |
Al & rotarius,
I followed your very well written concise instructions last night and was able to dial in the Grace 747 and for the first time the SME 3009. I am really happy about this.
The Denon 103 has a conical stylus, so given rotarius remarks is there something else that I should do?
Thank you!
Norman
|
roarius,
I have reset the anti-skate yet once again, this time using a mono LP. The results are almost identical to when I used a stereo LP. All good.
Thank you.
Norman
|
pryso,
Using the procedure that Al recommend and then using a mono LP as rotarius suggested I feel good about the settings on both tonearms. The biggest improvement however was seen using this method on the SME 3009. The settings on the Grace 747 are almost identical to those that I had previously.
Having always used anti-skate I was just surprised at how the old AR responded without any anti-skate at all. I am still kind of fascinated as that particular set up just did not appear to need it anti-skate at all.
Norman
|
lewm,
Your suggestion about the arm bearing friction is probably whats happening with regard to the AR. That would make more sense than anything given the age. The bearing could quite possibly be providing exactly and unintentionaly whats needed by means of wear.
Norman
|
bdp24,
I did the same thing with my Dual 1229 when I replaced the original tonearm with the Grace 747, only I did the machine work.
The AR tonearm is crude, but I have to admit it sounds good. Obviously many others felt the same way. I was reading that it out-sold every other turntable for a decade by a 3-1 margin.
Norman
|
asvjerry If you like it, keep it. Don't let the means spoil the enjoyment of the music.... ;) Well said. I don't remember many quality tangential tonearms in the 70's. Rabco? Phase Linear had a sweet arm on it's 8000 turntable which I believe was built by Pioneer or Series ONE for the Japan market. In any event, it was a superb arm. Norman |
Anyone notice how many 12" arms have no anti-skate? From what I have read, the arm length seems to offset the skating forces one finds on arms in the 7-9" range. I actually have an old Audio Technica 12" arm that has no provison for anti-skate. I was going to use it with my EMT turntable but need to have some servicing done on it first.
|
pryso,
The Phase Linear arm was so quick. I wish it were offered as a stand alone item, but of couse never was.
I have a client in Chicago whon has a Rockport System III Sirus turntable and I believe it has an air bearing tangential tonearm. What a table! An entirely different league.
Done correctly, the dreaded tangential tonearm can be the last word on the matter. Tracking perfectly. Makes one wonder why we so many pivitol tonearms and so few tangential?
Norman
|
pryso,
There is no question that the reason we see so many belt drive tables is because they are cheap to manufacture. Idler drive and direct drive tables are definitely more expensive. I remember looking at my Linn LP12 and Aristion RD11 (same table) and thinking that other then the nice plinths there isn't much to it. My Garrard, Dual and EMT are truly custom made tables. Each part manufactured specifically for the table. The build quality is so evident. I tire of seeing massive acrylic platters, powered by puny little motors that struggle to get up to speed.
To me (my opinion) that's hardly engineering.
Norman
|
stringreen, Normansizemore.....Do you remember the Harmann-Kardon turntable with linear tracking?? Yes I do. It was the Harman Kardon ST-7 with the RABCO tonearm. They had some problems at first, but I have seen those perform quite well. I believe that originally, RABCO was an independent company and Harman Kardon eventually bought them out and took over manufacturing. That is when some of the minor production issues got sorted out. It was quite popular in the mid seventies. Norman |
Terry9 "So I demand, and get, minimal vibration and minimal radiated EM field. And precision manufacturing is pretty cheap and easy with these puny little things." There is no audible EM field or audible vibration rumble etc from any of my idler drive tables. They are dead silent. What you do get is a sense of drive, pace and power with idler drive that you can't get with belt driven tables. (Good direct drive can also give you a simlar experience as idler drive). You have to spend huge, (walker audio, rockport, continuum ) money to get that from belt drive. I certainly wasn't getting it from my Thorens 166, Linn LP12, or Ariston RD11. Yes, my Linn had $$$$$$$ in upgrades. I swear my dealer had it more than me. (I eventually bought a Linn turntable Jig) Norman |
