Charles, excuse my ignorance, but what are the salient differences between the two tube camps?
I had never got on with tubes full stop, being totally put off them by the stereotypical over warm wooly sound portrayed by BAT eg. But seven years ago got bowled over by the tube Hovland HP200 pre and found this sounded great with the SS Radia amp, servicing my Pro Ac Futures 2, then Zu Def2s and now 4s. Just love the combination of tube liquidity and SS neutrality.
Interestingly the 4s are so transparent and revealing I'm detecting a hint of hardness/coolness which I attribute to the SS Radia, and am really tempted to investigate all tube. Let me say this hardness is only a hint and may well be eradicated by careful choice of cabling (considering all Zu Event) rather than amp change.
So we have SET eg Audion Black Shadow, championed by Phil v OTL eg Atma Sphere championed by UK Zu dealer/Dave Berning ZOTL, much favoured by Roy Gregory in the detailed review of the Def4s in Audio Beat.
How do their respective pros and cons stack up, esp. in respect to listening thru the Def4s, with a very neutral revealing front end (in my case direct rim drive tt with air bearing linear tracking arm Trans Fi Salvation/ Terminator T3Pro)? |
Charles, my UK Zu dealer concurs that Dueland CAST Cu capacitors on the tweeter are likely to be a fruitful avenue re upgrading the 4s to make the top end sweeter and more extended, and importantly, better suited to a wider variety of amps, be they SS, SET 845 or OTL.
Just waiting on Sean to inform of the capacitance value before possibly going ahead with the change.
I'm reasonably confident this may tame some of the glassiness apparent with my Hovland Radia SS power amp, obviating the need to go tubes only.
If it presents a level playing field and is more SS amp friendly, it'll be worth the price of admission. |
I can't thank everybody enough who has taken time to contribute to this part of the thread. What I'm finding with my Zu-Hovland combination is a great synergy, but the 4s are so revealing that I believe I'm hearing the sonic fingerprint of my Radia SS power amp as a slight steeliness/edginess where the leading edge of notes is at the expense of the full bloom of notes. It's just a hint, but I suspect that all tubes will take me in a better direction. In all other respects I love the combination. Interestingly my cd player sounds better than ever, but I can really "hear" the mechanical nature in digital clearly not present in analogue reproduction.
It's getting harder and harder to audition all types of equipment, esp. if like me you don't have a relationship with a single dealer.
So I'm going to spend plenty of time (and perhaps not a little cash) investigating SET 845 v OTL, in the form of Audion Black Shadow v Atma Sphere/Dave Berning. Luckily all three brands have good representation in the UK, and all three have the thumbs up from those who've heard them with the 4s (Phil re Audion, UK Zu distributor Simon Matanle re Atma Sphere, and Roy Gregory who reviewed the 4s for Audio Beat re Berning).
A lot of other repected choices don't have UK distribution, so it's down to these three.
Loathe to replace my Hovland HP200 tube pre, this I really do believe to be liquid and revealing, and has benefit of remote control.
I'm really craving even handedness and neutrality, so I want to make certain that any extra tonality that might be present in SET over OTL isn't a colouration taking me away from this goal. |
A little info that may explain the assertion that the 4s with OTL sound possibly lean thru the midbass, and analytical with emphasised treble, versus SET 845 which may present more body and a richer tonality.
It seems that the capacitor, a Mundorf, on the high pass filter to the Radian tweeter would present a very hot treble thru the Radian 850 with OTL.
A solution to this would be the replacement of this capacitor taming the very top end a little to accommodate the OTL more successfully.
Apparently this is a rel simple job involving getting to the back of the tweeter, the capacitor is not even soldered, just a straight swap.
Interestingly on the 6Moons preview of the Druid V, the Italian distributor has done just this proceedure to alter it's high end character. |
Charles, not sure. All I know is that Simon the UK distributor who is a big fan of Atma Sphere certainly agreed that the hint of leaness with these OTLs could be effectively countered by a cap slightly holding back the top end and accommodating the OTL more sweetly.
I believe the 4s use Mundorf, but this isn't my field of expertise, so will leave to Phil to contribute if he wants to.
Personally, the sound of the 4s is changing for the better every day. They're really chameleon like, absolutely reflecting what's on the recording, not imposing themselves, and presenting a real open window to performance.
My Hovlands are sounding more and more like they're keepers with the 4s, but I'll keep an open mind re amp choices. |
Well Charles, I've just checked the main UK source of Dueland Cast PIO Copper caps, and depending on spec, they range in price from $300 to $3750. Gulp! I presume I need these for the preamp only? How many am I likely to need, just 2 with labour charge to install would cover the cost of a brand new Atma S30! Anyhow, I thought one of the big positives re Bob Hovland was that his Hov MusiCaps were great performers and sought after by other component designers.
Isn't this all a bit of a punt? I mean there's no way to a-b an upgraded amp/spkrs with caps installed against the unadulterated originals. This is almost as risky as a particular cartridge dealer in the UK refusing home trial, expecting me to buy without being totally secure in hearing it in my system.
Lack of comparison leaves me a little anxious re the outcome. I have to emphasise the Hovs only demonstrate a hint of glassiness on some material, and I'm still convinced this is eminently tolerable with the liquid neutrality I hear most of the time. Additionally, the 4s are changing for the better literally day to day, bringing much needed warmth to offset occas coolness. Still convinced careful cable/power cord choice (Zu Event), vibration control (settling on Symposium Isis and prob Minus K on wall shelf for tt) and balanced power overkill (Westwick Audio 8kVA transformer) will maximise neutrality with just the right amount of warmth to hopefully fully balance the final sound. But I'm not going to totally dismiss possible SET/OTL avenues. |
Charles, I had a little bit of a mindstorm, and thought you were suggesting I replace the caps in my Hov pre! That would have cost me a tidy sum, in effect the cost of totally new amplification!
I'll check with Sean on the cap value on the tweeters in the 4s and give this some serious consideration. Luckily here this is a rel. simple install job, no soldering needed, just temp. dismantling of tweeter. |
I'm not going to rush into a cap change at this point, although it's on my radar. The sound of the 4s is changing daily, thankfully for the better, as I continue to make small adjustments. Eg I've just located my amps onto Symposium Isis supports, and having placed Precision Couplers under the amps a whole layer of upper midbass colouration has cleared and a more transparent window to the music has resulted.
I always scoffed at audiophiles talking this way, but, ahem, I'm now guilty of applying hyperbole to what I perceive to be big changes in sound with ongoing changes.
What I'm concluding from this is that the 4s really are a remarkable transducer, presenting a really direct line to the music, and capable of revealing the quality of all elements in the chain between it and the source played.
I want to try a few changes, but based on my conclusions so far I'm certain a cap change will be noticeable, as would amp change from SS to SET 845/OTL.
Phil, please keep us all informed on your cap change findings. Please give serious consideration to trying the Dueland Cast Cu, apparently the best, but also the most expensive. The guy on the 6Moons site with DruidVs certainly concluded it was an advantage to swap out the stock Mundorfs. |
Charles, the 6Moons preview of the Druid V makes special mention of possible upgrading in SQ by substituting caps, from the stock Clarity Cap, thru the Intertechnik Audyn Copper to the Duelund Black. Consensus was that the Duelund is the way to go, although the Audyn well outperformed the stock cap. Really feeling this is the next place to go re upgrading.
Is the Duelund Black the same as your Duelund Cast Copper? |
Charles, a pair of CAST Cu amount to about 10% the price off the spkrs, whereas CAST Ag appear to be special order everywhere, price TBA, my guess is maybe 2-3x the price.
You seem v. happy with the Cu, and I'm sure Sean of Zu will concur with you.
Unless he gives me a compelling reason to go down the Ag route, it seems that Cu will be it. |
Warrenh, I can assure you, you WON'T be dissapointed. Whether you can smooth it over with the wife, that's another matter, the best of luck. You could always say it'll maintain your sanity in the twilight years making your relationship trouble free for years to come. Be prepared to buy her a bit of what she wants however.
Seriously, I stand by every word of my multi part review a few posts back, with the added comments that my indifference over the tweeter is fully resolved. The only down side is a tendency to bring out any OCD issues you may have - the 4s are such a transparent transducer that any changes you make will be fully heard, and of course this can go in the wrong as well as right direction. I'm finding toe in, bass adjustments on the spkr, and component supports/isolation (my choice is Symposium) making massive gains in SQ. I'm often 'in the zone' now, and I really feel this is one aspect of the upgrade merry-go-round I'm happy stepping off. |
Charles, the price of a couple of CAST Cu is $1300-$1500 in relation to the spkrs costing $16k. Very much the territory of what I consider reasonable re i/c or power cord upgrades. If the CAST Ag is 3-4x this cost, that would be much more in the territory of spending money on a component upgrade such as an OTL or SET amp, and hence not that practical. CAST Cu it is.
Warren, congrats on making the decision to go full steam towards the 4s. My girlfriend congratulated me on my choice too as we visited the jewellery shop to select a very nice jewel for her, ha ha! |
Warren, consider Cosmic Carbon. My girlfriend picked this finish, followed by the earrings she always wanted, so it was a happy day for both of us 6 months ago when I paid for the lot! I think it's a fantastic finish, mates nicely with the Al driver rings, tweeter lens and base plate. So much more interesting than the standard black I was initially considering.
Be prepared for the familiarity of the Zu DNA of your current Defs, evolved into a heightened experience all 'round. Primarily a quantum leap in transparency and jump factor with the new Nanotec FRDs, much more powerful and integrated bass with the single fully adjustable down firing sub, and more natural extended treble response with the new Radian 850 tweeter. Really feel you'd have to spend 3x the amount to get any meaningful significant improvements with any other spkr (shudder to think what the $60k+ Dominances are capable of). |
Phil, I'm going to try and audition the Audion Black Shadows in the New Year. Will partner it with an Audion pre. I notice there is a choice of premier and 2/4 box Quattros. Other than the phono stage in the 2/4 box, is there any major difference in the line stage section of these three units? |
Vetterone, there has been a little bit of discussion on this thread re changing caps on Def4 tweeters. Charles esp. recommends Duelund CAST Cu, or Ag. What specifically did you change to, what has your experience been, and did you have the stock caps in your first pair of 4s?
This is not the most straightforward change, since one cannot practically perform an a-b, so need to go down this path with confidence that the change will be significant, and positive across a whole spectrum of music.
At the moment, what I'm loving about the 4s is a real transparency in the treble, which together with the delicacy of the FRDs is providing an almost electrostatic like quality to the sound. Can this treble quality really be improved a great deal further with cap switch? |
So, 10 weeks in, and the 4s continue to impress. What I'm most happy about at the moment is ironically what was always most lacking in the 2s, and what wasn't totally convincing on first listen, and that's the treble. The whole presentation now has an amazing sparkle but with none of the emphasised treble tilt so present in multi driver/xovered type speakers. There's no doubt the FRDs are still controlling the majority of output, but the Radian 850 unit is really proving it's worth without ever drawing undue attention to itself (no diamond, Beryllium or ceramic drivers for me, thank you!).
The result is a comfortable relaxed sound that really shines into the higher (and lower) frequencies, but only when needed, maintaining a really holistic presentation all the time, but then exploding in an instant where real headroom and dynamics are needed.
I'm really perplexed with anti Zu sound comments over the years, and now I believe this spkr with the Druid Vs really deserve to be heard and I'm sure appreciated by a greater number of potential buyers. I really believe Wilson, Magico B&W, YG etc. would lose sales if the new breed of Zus were wider listened to.
Further to treble comments, I'm still going to investigate the cap upgrade to Duelund CAST Cu, and I really am finding my Hovland amplification is synergising nicely, obviating a real need to go SET or OTL (although I will still investigate these options). For me, system wide improvements I feel are still the best way to go esp power and supports/vibration control. The 4s are so transparent that for the first time in my system changing racks are having profound outcomes. |
Break in is a very interesting phenomenon. My Def2s broke in fully within 48hrs, and this was direct from the US to London in sub zero temps!
My 4s otoh, delivered in the late Autumn, first spending 8 weeks with Roy Gregory who used them for his Audio Beat review, and yet they have been sounding more relaxed and powerful literally everyday since I've had them since late Oct.
Now, I have been experimenting a lot with setup, so who knows whether this is burning in or just that they are ruthlessly revealing, transparent and neutral and really benefit from really careful approach to set up.
All I can say is do NOT expect them to sound of their best immediately, and ask your wife to send out a search party periodically as you fail to resurface from your Zu project! |
I get my kicks purely thru music, waccy baccy not so much. Shipping cost maybe around $700, but this is across the Atlantic.
Initially I had the tweeters crossing too far in front of me, but with Phil's advice reduced the toe in so they cross just behind - I sit 12' back from them, and just see the inner walls of the cabinets.
The only bottom end I prefer to the 4s is Beyonce's LOL, oh and my GFs'! But seriously, the 4s bass is SERIOUS. Hard to believe the single 12" driver so outclasses the 4 x 10"ers of the 4s, but it's almost embarrassing. The trick is to make sure the bass tilt doesn't crossover much higher than the natural roll offf of the FRDs into the sub bass, in most rooms this'll be 35-40Hz.
The rock solid Al plinth fixing of the sub driver, and superb performance of the FRDs into bass territory really elevates the performance over previous models.
The bass can really be cranked up, but what is really impressive is bass articulation at lower levels which enhances presence of the whole presentation. |
Initial chills of anticipation will give way to the warmth of what I call cognitive calm. In other words, the sound is so balanced, and very much akin to how music is experienced live, that a real subconcious relaxation envelops where you're not picking the sound apart, just allowing it to wash over you. This I really believe to be due to a lack of musical energy being degraded by traditional xover, and the FRDs providing over 90% of the musical spectrum in an entirely holistic manner. The spell is completed by a really sweetly performing high end and foundation gripping low end. But don't feel that talk of calm and relaxation means a laid back or boring sound, no nothing of the sort. The 4s possess uncanny rhythmic and dynamic grip ie one can relax into the music and have edge of your seat excitement, all at the same time.
I often find compliments from non-audiophiles most instructive of all: my best friend's GF, an avowed non believer in spending any money on a system, listened to an average lp pressing of some Elvis, and excitedly stated she couldn't locate where the music was coming from, she'd never experienced such transparency in listening to music before. Nuff said. Quite an achievement. Thank God I'm never likely to be afford the Dominance, if I did I might never leave the apartment! The other component in my system that is demonstrating this total lack of strain is my direct rim drive tt/linear tracking arm, so devoid of jarring analogue artifacts it's unreal.
So Warren, I just KNOW you are going to be so happy with these. You'll never feel the need to move beyond them. |
The high frequencies of the 4s are what are really impressing me at the moment. I've heard other spkrs with more "spectacular" treble, but it always in the long run seems discontinuous from the mids.
In comparison, the 4s' high end sounds so organic, and continuous with the mids. I'm sure this is a function of the new nano FRDs being so much more snappy and transparent, covering a good deal of the higher spectrum anyway, leaving the Radian supertweeter less strained and more integrated. It can't be any coincidence that there's no complicating xover to contend with.
I'm finding my Hovland amps are synergising nicely, but am still interested in hearing opinions as to whether a Duelund CAST Cu cap upgrade will enhance further sweetness in the presentation. Need more opinions please. |
Zu continue to amaze. Just got back from ESCO a modded Zu 103 cart. Within SECONDS of the stylus dropping in the groove, I'm in analogue Heaven.
Sean and the guys are engineering geniuses to take the humble 103 and boost it's performance to make it work right at home with what I believe are spkrs performing right at the apex of what's possible.
Had been considering the Straingauge cart, but not so sure now, really believe synergy may be everything. |
I'm right in 'the zone' listening to the ESCO modded Zu 103 cart on my tt thru the Def4s. It so outperforms the 4x more expensive, and more celebrated, Transfiguration Orpheus, that it's beyond a joke.
An amazing synergy is going on between these two components, maybe no surprise since Sean and the Zu team voiced the 4s specifically around the strengths of the Zu 103.
It's no coincidence that the most difficult components to get right in an analogue based audio system are the transducers (ie cart and spkrs). They hold the key to the 'flavour' of the system, and it's so easy to get their choice wrong. Thus it's great that both these components have a deliberate similarity in tone and feel.
So any tt users who are running the 4s, do yourself a favour and get the Zu 103, and even better still get the ESCO modification, you won't be sorry. |
The Def 4s continue to impress. My Hovlands are really synergising nicely, and feeling so attached to these components for 7 years now, I'm deciding not to go ahead with any amp upgrade. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
My opinion of the 4s escalates. Each day I feel it brings something new to the listening experience. Digital has never sounded so expressive, and the synergy of the spkrs with Zu's own 103 cart (augmented by ESCCo mods) really is bringing out the best in analogue too.
It's really refreshing to find an audio product where a revision brings a whole set of improvements rather than just a new name and inflated price for little in return.
Really feel at it's price point it's without peer, and sure it would give spkrs 2-3x the price a real run for their money.
All those Wilson/Magico/YG etc. purchasers are really missing a trick by not trying these beauties! |
Hey, am I the only one to keep the Def4 thread alive? A note to Phil esp., I've just got back the Uk based Expert Stylus And Cartidge Company (ESCCo) modded Zu 103 cart with unique Paratrace stylus and White Sapphire cantilever.
Rest assured Phil, imho ALL the positives of the stock Zu 103 are retained, with some distinct improvements - a much more lithe bass, but esp. a taming of the stridency in the treble that it was always a little close to on many discs.
In a lot of ways the improvements parallel the Def2 to 4 upgrade, ie the DNA of the Zu 103 is all present esp. supreme tonality and involvement, with a slightly less 'hot' balance, and a smoother, more extended, somewhat more transparent overall sound.
If you have a spare Zu 103, give ESCCo a spin, I don't think you'll be dissapointed.
Btw, will follow your cap comparison on the Druid V thread. Can you confirm that since the Druid V and Def 4s use the same Radian 850, any preference on the Druid V will be replicated on the Def 4s? |
Charles, just spoken to Sean at Zu. Their top option for cap upgrade to the Def 4s tweeter is the Duelund VSF Black Cu. He's not familiar with the CAST and hasn't experimented with it. So the Black VSF is where I'm going. |
Warrenh, first off, you're going to be SO stoked with your 4s (and I suspect your wife may be just a little pleased too)! Despite my original reservations that the tweeter wasn't a night and day upgrade in the 4s over the 2s, I've done a 180 on this - in fact the higher frequencies are to die for. But, it took a LOT of adjusting to get the 4s to sound of their best, incl. from the tweeter. Hence, I wasn't at all feeling I was missing anything. But Charles has put the cat amongst the pigeons in expressly stating that a cap upgrade will extend the sq of the higher frequencies further. At the likely price of c.$1000, it seems like a no brainer to squeeze out maybe a last 5% of performance. If I was going down an amp upgrade, I would hold off on this, but I'm really happy with my Hovland amp/Def 4s synergy, and so this is the logical road to go down to improve performance envelope further (save for possible Zu Event power cords/replacement of stock spikes). |
Thanks Charles, decision to go down VSF Black Cu in motion, waiting on Zu's Sean and my UK dealer to liase to do upgrade. My Hovland amps are really hitting the sweet spot via the Def 4s, no upgrade needed here, so this is a no brainer to squeeze out another 5%. Feels strange to know that my system has gone up a quantum leap and is not wanting in any way. After this change, thus I'm rapidly reaching the end point of system building. |
Naggots, as far as I can tell from my dealer, Zu supply a network ie not just cap, but in conjunction with the 2 resistors etc. I suspect (although not sure) they'll be all Duelund. |
I'm aiming to put one Symposium Acoustics Rollerblock Jr module at each corner of the two spkrs, and place them on Svelte Shelves. My Symposium Isis rack has been fantastic at isolating my main components, and I'm hoping I'll get a similar level of performance with my Zu Def 4 spkrs. |
