Agear- I'm pretty much settled on tube right now. I've had Mcintosh and FirstWatt, so well aware of the best of SS type designs w/ Zu, which I'm sure ASR is in the same league as.
My room is a bit of a bear and eats bass, so that has led me to P/P amps in general--SET hasn't worked out in my room. |
Keith, that makes sense. I think the secret sauce with ASR involves the battery powered input stage. Glory and others can chime in on how it sounds with the Zus.... |
I can pretty much understand where the pro and not so pro ASR comments are coming from. It's the age old debate as to whether cool detailed neutrality is preferable to a maybe more colourful but equally vibrant sound.
My Def 4s are due to be ready in July, and having taken on a highly neutral and transparent tt/arm (see my thread on the analog forum 'Trans Fi Audio Salvation direct rim drive turntable') I'm on the hunt for a neutral cartridge.
The market for an upgraded amp is an interesting one, currently I run Hovland HP200 tube pre/Radia ss pow, which has served me well with the Def 2s. I have identified three ways to go if Def 4s indicate need for improvement, all for about the same price as the Def 4s. These are: the ASR Emitter 2, Dave Berning Z-OTL pre/pow, and the Audion pre or Silvercore TVC pre/Audion Silver Dream pow. My only issue with the ASR as a complement to the Def 4s is that the amps are overpowerful at 250w/ch feeding 101+dB efficient speakers, which by design only need the first 15-30W on tap. Doesn't this leave a possible power/impedance mismatch between the ASR and the Def 4s, showing neither to their best advantage? |
Actually I meant the Audion Black Shadow pow as one of the alternatives to my Hovland Radia, and alongside the ASR as final upgrade choice to feed the Def 4s |
Spiritofmusic,
Will it be possible for you to actually compare these amplifiers in your system? I`d think the Audion and ASR are different enough that you`ll definitely go in one direction or the other. |
Well Charles, ASR, Audion and Dave Berning all have distributors in the UK, and pre/pow combinations are all in the £10000-15000 range.
Firstly, purchase of the Def 4s and new tt/arm have pretty much emptied my bank account, and a little upturn in the World economy would be SO good for business.
Because the Hovland pre/pow has served me so well, amp upgrade is something I'm curious about, but is not a priority right now.
So as a fan of ASR, is it not overkill on the power front mated with the ultra high eff Def 4s? |
I asked the Zu boys the same question on to much power. With a smile I got the answer of the more power the merrier. ASR power is a great match with the Def speakers.
Make sure you use clean power with such an amp like the Purepower unit. Plug it into the wall and suck on an egg. |
Spirit,
It seems you have built a truly excellent system,congratulations! Without question you`ll get numerous opinions regarding which power amp is better for your system.The ASR does seem to be overkill power(on paper anyway) yet I don`t doubt glory,agear or others who prefer it(why should I?). The issue is what type of sound moves you and connects you to the music you enjoy.
Depending on your ears and taste I could see any of the 3 choices working out great for you.For me given my preferences and priorities I`d buy the Audion amp in a heartbeat.But as we all know it purely personal choice as opposed to some infailiable objective rule book. Hey, just buy which ever one sounds best to your ears when the time comes. It is pointless to argue about which amp is better in absolute terms, audio is the epitome of a subjective endeavor.
Regards, |
Hi Glory, don't believe in conditioning, convinced it can suck the dynamics out of a system (poss. restiction to power amp peak current). Much more convinced by balanced power, aiming for a 9kV unit with enough headroom for any amp out there.
The consensus on ASR seems to be that it is the champ on transparency, soundstaging and dynamics, but leaves many listeners with a cool, detached presentation.
Will be fascinated to investigate this further. 213Cobra no doubt will feel SET amps fill in the emotional quotient in presentation. |
Spirit,
They same had been said about the Dart amp or any other SS amp. It you are not willing to hook up the ASR to the right wire/components then stay away from it. But if you have the time and find a used unit you can steal one from a owner who is wanting to try the latest/greatest amp.
A cool and detached presentation is not what I or 6 other owners are hearing. 5 of the owners have tubed Dac's, 3 AMR/2 Lampizator and one SS. The 7th one I have no info on his source. Three of us run Zu Def speakers with the Emitter 1.
Read the PF review of the Emitter when the reviewer found the right hook up wire for the ASR and what he said about it.
There are some who have heard Zu speakers that have said they were left with a HF sound. You and I know different when hooked up to the right gear.
I hear Dad running around the corner with his SET thoughts LOL. Yes they do sound good on Zu speakers. Will wait for your thoughts on amp selection with anticipation.
You are not going to use the stock Footers for your new Def4 are you?
The Purepower is not a PC and doesn't limit dynamics. |
My own experience with ASR is a clean, smooth but bleached aural presentation; good without regard to cost but tonally incomplete in any case and not retrievable if your criteria for fidelity include holistic representation of the leading, middle and decay of a note, as well as many simultaneous notes together. ASR produces an illusion of fidelity rather than the actual facsimile of it. Very good. Very expensive for what you get. Not far enough on the arc of convincing musicality. But I fully understand why some people are attracted to the clean, desiccated sound of ASR along with many other advanced but flat solid state options similar.
Phil |
Spirit, three tube-o-phile Zu owners converted, and coolness and sterility has not been the consensus. Source (you have a good one) and cabling matter.
The OTL route makes some sense too. In addition to the Dave Berning Z-OTL, Atmasphere is also worth looking at.... |
23,
3 owners of Def speakers with the ASR amp are not hearing what you did with the ASR.
I have learned to disregard your thoughts on the ASR amp as a misguided missile. What you think is real sounding and fake sounding in your system is IYO and not true of the ASR Emitter amp in general. |
Cobra, the ASR's neutrality and low noise is simply highlighting the idiosyncrasies of your system/room |
Guys,
It's not a popularity contest. A few people or even many liking a sound isn't persuasive to me. You have to convince me first you know what real instruments sound like in unamplified circumstances for me to assign any special credibility to your view of ASR. But I have no argument with someone liking a sound, even if it's "wrong." No harm in that. Just don't expect my view of it to change unless the ASR meaningfully improves their amplification so I hear a better result. Until then you can quote 3 or 3000 converts. It's irrelevant. If majorities reflected good judgment in hifi, there would be no Bose, B&W, Boulder, Wilson or Krell.
I don't think ASR makes bad amplification. I just can't listen to its truncated, desiccated tone. I don't doubt for a second that ASR sounds fine -- until you hear better, and until a listener thinks seriously about how music actually sounds. It's pretty good for SS, bested by just a few others in that topology. Build quality is *very* high. At its price and even lower, however, there are better alternatives for approaching the original sound. It really doesn't matter that we don't agree. You'll put the ASR in your rear view mirror sooner or later, too, just like every other amp you've championed in the past. It's OK! Enjoy it while you can. You're in the realm of the white hats with your speakers anyway.
Phil |
Cobra, the ASR's neutrality and low noise is simply highlighting the idiosyncrasies of your system/room |
Or another possibility,Phil system is revealing the true character of the ASR. One perspective is as plausible as the other.For those who prefer the ASR amp why does it matter so much that some don`t hear it as you do? In phil`s system the Audion amplifier was simply better in his opinion. We have a diffence of opinions,heaven forbid. |
Gentleman, this is another example of system synergy. Years ago I tried SS Krell amps in my system, found them bleached/sterile, then tube BAT, found them too warm/coloured. Progressed onto tube pre+SS pow Hovland and it's been in my system ever since.
Aware of this, I'll be fully prepared for sound differences between ASR and Audion/Berning if I investigate amps.
My current consuideration is cart/phono stage (subject for another thread). |
We ASR owners have turned the light on for you so you don't trip over the amp and you write the same old stuff about it. Synergy etc...
Here is a cut from a review from A PF review
The unit has such an envious agglomeration of virtues, between the deafening silence, the purity of the signal, the grandly proportioned soundstage populated with large images, the abundant high grades across the audiophile scorecard, and all this conjoined with tube-like fleshy bodies and a deeply saturated, dark tonal balance, and satisfying timbral productionÂ… All of the telltale solid-state artifacts are gone. You'll never hear the adjective thin used to describe this gear.
And most of these characteristics are shared with my mbl Noble Line separates. This is what's so special about these two product lines. They commingle in one box the most desirable attributes of solid-state and tubes.
Yet, in spite of this overweighting of virtues, I often found myself on the outside, looking in. The Emitter had a coolness that somehow kept your emotions at a distance. It shared the reserve that I had noticed in the Basis Exclusive. Maybe that's because it's too clean and quiet—too neutral? It has what psychologists might describe as a flat affect. The musical line isn't quite the curvy waveform that it should be. This wasn't just me; this opinion came from a number of visitors.
And then
Hold on. Near the end of the audition, a Kubala-Sosna Emotion PC with a 20-amp plug walked in (MSRP $1225). No more speculating: I can tell you it certainly does make a difference. The K-S cord enriched body and color, and fortified the bottom. Bass notes that I wasn't sure I heard were solid, tight and coherent to boot.
Pursuing this further, I continued adding Kubala-Sosna Emotion wire. This was when I had replaced the Kharma Exquisite-Midi speakers with the CRM 3.2.2. With each additional length I noted increased involvement. My reservations regarding the unit's aloofness receded. Then, at the point when the entire rig was dressed in Kubala-Sosna, something unpredictable happened. The rig morphed and became startlingly lifelike, albeit as a scaled-down reduction. Dudes who came by and heard this simply uttered, "Yeah. That's got it." The "it" they're referring to is very difficult to put your finger on, but I'll tell you, it isn't as simple as more Speed! Resolution! Dynamics! (the Three Tenets of Audiophilia). As best as I can fathom, the major ingredients of the ephemeral recipe call for accurate and complete timbral reproduction and a very elusive quality of dynamic openness. The timbre kicked in with the Kubala-Sosna wires. When you go shopping for wires for the Emitter, you want to favor the emotive side. (The Argento brand can be added to this list. The little that I heard placed it in that camp. More to come on this one down the road a bit.) The dynamic openness was a byproduct of the dream-team amp / speaker interface between the Emitter and the CRM 3.2.2.
And
Then, with the CRM 3.2.2 speakers and all K-S wiring, the system took off and was capable of reliable transport to the land of "it," as in "Yeah. That's got it," where suspension of disbelief is possible. This was a storybook combination.
If you want to just throw it in your system and turn the power on then you maybe in for a bumpy ride. Take the wisdom from owners and enjoy a world class amp. |
Spirit, what cables do you use? The consensus from recent ASR coverts is that Zu cabling is NOT synergistic as is a lot of silver cabling in general unless it is top of the barrel and well implemented. Faux detail and dynamics from silver works with tube amps but is not necessary with the ASR |
I will be honest--if it took $$$$ of K/S cables to make the ASR sound really exceptional, I have some issues with the entire premise.
I will be more than happy to try an ASR if someone can arrange a SoCal dealer drop one off in my home for a week (I have a call into the distributor). In fact, we could easily arrange a shoot out with Quads and Black Shadows for all to hear. |
Glory,
Validation from a reviewer is at the end of the day just another person`s opinion. You can find 'rave' reviews on any number of amplifiers(including my Coincident, just anothrer point of view). If the ASR is the best you`ve owned thus far that`s wonderful for you(and agear). The simple fact is not everyone will find the ASR compelling or particularly special(this is true of 'any'component.The short comings phil mention are relevant flaws to him and those who share the same priorities.I don`t find it hard to except that other amps do certain things in a superior fashion.
Bottom line the amplifier is a home run for you,enjoy it.If won`t please everyone so why worry about convincing others who have different sonic values? Do you feel only those who hear as you do are right and everyone else is wrong?
Agear, why stoop to snide comments about phil`s room/system and ancillary equitment? His system 'may' equal or perhaps better your own,how would you possibly know?
Regards, |
no SoCal ASR dealer guys, sorry. |
Keithr,
That`s a great plan! I`d love the opprotunity to hear what these various amplifiers have to offer.I hope you can pull this off.This would be a lot of fun.
Regards, |
Keithr, you posted 2nd post just prior to mine. Darn it! the was a excellent idea you had. |
Kharma + ASR. Two wrongs together don't make a right. But there's a larger point to be made: A review of something I haven't heard *can* give me a clue of what to take a chance on, particularly if I can find reviews of other components I *have* heard, by the same writer. Then I can triangulate how much credibility to assign the new review based on what we agreed or disagreed on in the past. But a review of something I *have* heard isn't persuasive or actionable to me in the least, if we reached different conclusions. So save it -- anyone can find a favorable review for *anything*.
Do power cords make a difference? Well, yes, in that they tend to bring their own sound. But if an amplifier needs a specific power cord to sound musically-convincing, and without it it doesn't, then said power cord should be supplied with the amp if it is so elemental to the performance of the circuit. "Dude, you didn't have the right power cord..." doesn't cut it. I'm pretty sure even ASR wouldn't endorse that proposition.
Somebody mentioned silver. Silver's advantage is simply in being the superior conductor, granting it wideband transparency. If silver doesn't sound good it's because there is a problem present upstream that silver isn't hiding. Dielectrics, wire weaves, etc. have their effects and can overwhelm the role of silver vs. copper vs. palladium, etc. But silver doesn't add detail or dynamics that aren't there in the first place. Other conductors may subtract some, which can be a good thing if something upstream of the speaker cable -- whether the amp, the source or the recording itself -- either contributes some hash or isspatially, tonally or harmonically incorrect. Silver's advantage is to simply reveal more. If silver and ASR don't work well together, the fault is with ASR, not silver by itself. It's not that silver is not good enough for the gear; it's that the gear or recording isn't good enough for silver, as has often been the case with digital.
Every power cord, speaker cable and interconnect introduces distinctive sonic character. Ideally we try to minimize this reality. A lot of people use these cable elements for sound-shaping, effectively rendering them fixed-parametric tone controls. Do what you want. My choice (and recommendation) is to assemble musically-convincing high-resolution gear that sounds proper in the aggregate on any reasonable cabling, and then optimize further with a neutral wire loom (which generally isn't correlated to cost).
Phil |
Agear, why stoop to snide comments about phil`s room/system and ancillary equipment? Just stating the obvious. You decision to flag that comment could be interpreted as snide. Just don't expect my view of it to change unless the ASR meaningfully improves their amplification so I hear a better result. Until then you can quote 3 or 3000 converts. It's irrelevant. If majorities reflected good judgment in hifi, there would be no Bose, B&W, Boulder, Wilson or Krell. Friederich Schafer has worked on that design for over 30 years. Maybe he should hire you as a consultant? Silver's advantage is simply in being the superior conductor, granting it wideband transparency. Silver is only nominally better as a conductor compared to copper (6% better). Translates into "louder" and not an increased bandwidth. Why is it that SET owners gravitate to silver? Hmmm. Every power cord, speaker cable and interconnect introduces distinctive sonic character. Ideally we try to minimize this reality. The same argument can be made against using SET amplification. Why not minimize second harmonic distortion? I have talked at length with a manufacturer who makes what many consider the best tube amplification in the world, and he felt that SETs present so many disadvantages from a design standpoint that they were not worth pursuing despite the plump and pleasing midrange. I will grant that they make life easier. No need to sweat the details regarding wire, conditioning, and even your room. C'est la vie.... |
Glory, I have ordered the Def 4s with their stock footers. Problem? Your suggestions? They will be situated on Symposium Acoustics Isis platforms that have worked so well with my Def 2s. |
>>Friederich Schafer has worked on that design for over 30 years. Maybe he should hire you as a consultant?<<
I commend his persistence. I heard the early amps. I had hopes for more progress by now.
>>Silver is only nominally better as a conductor compared to copper (6% better). Translates into "louder" and not an increased bandwidth. Why is it that SET owners gravitate to silver? Hmmm.<<
You are correct that the percentage improvement of silver's conductivity over copper is small, numerically. In coils or in wire weaves however, the bandwidth and revelatory differences between metals can be real in addition. Having worked on silver vs. copper based audio product development efforts, I am speaking of both measured and audible differences, first-hand. Regardless, compensating for any loudness difference is easy. More to the point, I get equally good sound out of SET amps with copper, copper + silver content and silver cabling. But the middle option does it at moderate cost. I don't have a bias for silver cabling for silver itself. I don't really care what's in a cable as long as it is sonically neutral or close to it.
Put another way, if an amp is musically convincing, it ought to be also credible on Paul Speltz' inexpensive Anti-Cables, and then the owner can decide how far to take cabling. I know I could do that with any SET amp I consider exceptional on its merits.
>>Why not minimize second harmonic distortion?<<
The best SET amp designs do minimize 2nd order harmonic distortion. They just don't go so far as to incur the downsides of negative feedback to push that one performance attribute to vanishing levels. There's more to perception of fidelity than vacant harmonic distortion.
>>I have talked at length with a manufacturer who makes what many consider the best tube amplification in the world, and he felt that SETs present so many disadvantages from a design standpoint that they were not worth pursuing despite the plump and pleasing midrange.<<
He's entitled to that view. Obviously SET amp designers disagree. Great SET amps don't have a "plump and pleasing" midrange. There's nothing "plump" about the midrange of the most convincing modern SET amps. It's the midrange qualities that you describe that kept me from embracing early examples of the SET amp revival. You just have to hear more credible examples, properly tubed. What they do have is a tonally complete, realistic midrange. What the design primarily gives up aside from high power is some ultimate bass control. It's a small price for the gains in real music fidelity in 90% of the aural range.
>>No need to sweat the details regarding wire, conditioning, and even your room.<<
If you choose the right gear to start with, the details are far easier to sort out. Music is the intent, not fetishism. I think it's great ASR amplification works for you. I'd rather see people happy in this pursuit than frustrated and chasing their tails.
Phil |
Good discussion folks,
Most often when a cable manufactuer has both silver and copper offerings the silver is considered the higher end and better/further up the line choice(with rare exceptions). Silver is believed to be the more neutural,transparent,resolved and open etc. Tubes and in particular SET amps historically mate well with silver as they don`t usally require added warmth,fullness or body to enhance their natural tone and harmonics.
The ASR is class AB and uses OP amps in the input stage(thus introducing negative feedback in the circuit). This will certainly lower the low order harmonic distortion(2nd and 3rd) but unfortunately produces the higher odd order(5th,7th and 9th) that are really nonexistent with the SET amps(which do have higher amounts of 2nd distortion(this of course varies quite much depending on the particular SET amp used).
If would seem logical that the Kubala Sosna which is 'generally' considered a 'warm' and 'rich' cable will complement the ASR lean/thinner presentation(compared to tubes). A good silver cable won`t add this full body(nor subtract)thus there`s no masking or embellishment for the ASR.
Marshall Nack`s findings do make sense to explain this synergy. His discovery just makes the point clearly with regards to proper matching to get a desired result. |
I'm really not sure why this amp-Zu Def 4s synergy argument is generating quite so much heat. It's great to see such heartfelt opinions, but there must be a fair amount of latitude in choosing the amp that works best with the Def 4s in any given room.
I have to say that moving away from belt drive tt/pivoted arm, to direct rim drive/linear tracking means I'll never go back, but I'd never say my way would suit everyone. Similarly, those who've progressed from SS to tubes, or vice versa surely wouldn't claim their way was the only way?
Surely a spkr with as much flexibility in being driven (100dB+ eff) is really going to allow a whole extra range of tube amps esp. SETs to work with it, and similarly it's lack of crossover surely will get the best out of a range of SS choices.
It so happens in my case I stumbled across a really holistic tube pre/SS pow combination in the Hovland HP200/Radia, and I can't wait to hear how it struts it's stuff with the Def 4s. It would seriously have to be found wanting for me to consider another round of costly upgrading.
Really happy with new tt/arm, have got ideas for upgrading current carts/phono, cd great, amps fine, new speakers...looking fwd! |
Overall, Zu makes a line of speakers that is amp-friendly to a wider range of electronics than any speaker brand I can think of. 101db/w/m efficiency that can also handle high power tube or solid state amps without distress. Relatively flat impedance curves, controlled floor & ceiling effects in Omen Def and Definition, check. Omen, the older Druid and Presence are/were ambidextrous about solid state or tube suitability. Superfly, the upcoming Coax and Definition "work" with anything but are considerably more exclusive about amplifier compatibility to sound musically outstanding (though this isn't strictly a cost issue, as the synergy between Quad II & II-Forty and Zu demonstrates). They are less forgiving of compromises in solid state designs than same in tube amplifiers, but overall there is a much narrower range of optimum amps for Superfly, Definition and the upcoming Coax. Still, people who don't like or don't want a tube amp have a half dozen compatible (and exceptional) solid state brands that make music with Zu. And sure, I'll put ASR among them. I think you can get much further with the right tube amplifiers but that doesn't really matter unless you're asking for direction. For whatever reason a Zu owner wants or prefers solid state amplification, they should have it. The issue here is that these forums become a permanent record of advocacy on the web.
Zu Definitions solve so many problems in music presentation that the amplifier just has to be good to put you in the realm of convincing hifi. The reason these amplifier topics become controversial is because the speaker is so good that once you hear it with even reasonable associated gear, the human brain (being a hungry beast) gets focused on extracting the nth degree of performance. And there's another thing: Zu upends the traditional weight in hifi given to the source. The amp/Zu interface becomes -- after the speaker itself -- the single most influential element in your system's sound. In a Zu system, much more rides on the amp selection than in systems built around most other speakers. Hence the heat the topic generates.
Phil |
Phil,
I`m curious would a 2 watt 45 amp or say a 6EM7 tube amp drive your Def IV speakers? or perhaps a 2A3 amp? I ask because 100 db is really high sensitivity and a Xoverless design is an easy load(at least in theory).
I see posts by other gon members who use these types of amps to effectively drive Fostex single driver speakers(usally 97 db ) as well as Lowther based speakers. These listeners seem happy with the results within reasonable limits.Your 845 tube amp seems like plenty of surplus power for a true 100 db speaker.
Regards, |
Charles,
I have this "2 watts" discussion all the time.
Look, it certainly works and 45 amps like the Yamamoto are revered by some who gravitate to flea power triodes. The tonal realism, immediacy and beauty can be arresting -- for awhile. I don't recommend this route however. The reason is that even at 101db/w/m efficiency, the dynamic limits of such a small amp are still quite noticed, even in a modest room, and that constant sense of grazing the ceiling -- or banging your head right through it -- is distracting. I find the 45 adherents forced to listen within dynamic limits that are excessively restrictive.
These 2w amps aren't cheap either. So instead, a well-executed 300B amp ala Audion Silver Night or Golden Nights can deliver all the tone, nuance and subtlety, but with acceptable dynamics. I consider a 300B's 7-8 w or perhaps a PX-25's 6-7w the practical lower limit for pairing Zu to an SET amp with true-tone attributes and acceptable dynamic range.
Better yet is a well-executed 845, but we've already discussed that.
Gerritt at Zu (the man you generally get when you dial them up) loves the Yamomoto 45 amp on his speakers, and recommends it unequivocably. I think if you are the kind of audiophile who has a small inventory of high quality amps in rotation, it's worth having a 45 like the Yamo or something similar among them. You'll love it some of the time. But if you have one amp only, I advise against 2w amps for Zu, as being too dynamically limited for general satisfaction. On balance for me, 2w amps give up too much in dynamic ease and headroom to gain what's lovely about them. Others may disagree.
There is one interesting way to justify it however. Are you a headphones listener? EddieCurrent has a sub-$3000 2a3 headphone amp that also has speaker outputs. Into speakers it outputs 3w/ch. Justify it for headphones and tap that flea power for speakers when you feel the urge to switch a few cables.
Phil |
Phil,
Thanks for your reply. Like I mentioned I asked out of pure curiosity. My 8 watt 300b works well with my 94 db speaker with multiple genres of music. So I thought 2 watts with a 100 db speaker would roughly be equal. I experience no sense of 'bumping' against a dynamic ceiling. Of course all flea powered amps(5 watts or less) are`nt created equal so there`s likely some range of varying sucess among them.
Thanks, |
So Phil, I know you have some familiarity with my Hovland HP200 tube pre and Radia 125W/ch pow amps. They've served me well with my Def2s, and softness in sound occasionally perceived I've come to the conclusion is more to do with the 2s' tweeter reticence.
So with the Def4s more complete Radian tweeter and better performing FRDs, do you believe this softness will recede, to be replaced by a more dynamic sound thru higher frequencies and in fact do you still believe there will be good synergy between the 4s and my Hovlands?
I know you have very opinionated views on amp choice and really value your input.
Btw, I hear my Def4s are almost ready at the Zu factory... |
Although I have not tried a 45 or 2a3 with the Zu Def 4s, I did try both with my Zu Def 2s and agree with Phil. I eventually found them restrictive and too much of a compromise. |
Hi Gsm18439,
Moving from those amps to a 300b made that much of a diference in driving your Zu Defs?
Regards, |
I really prefer the 40 watts I have now on my Quads than any other smaller watt amps I have tried. YMMV (strongly, due to room size etc)
Also, fwiw, Quad II Classics at 15w sounded demonstrably stronger than 25 watt 845s. |
Keithr,
I realized quite a while ago that it`s hard to predict what combination of components will sound best to a particular listener.Your Def IV(on paper anyway) is 6 db more sensitive than my Coincident speaker and should mate even better to the lower watt amplifiers. I have a 100 watt (60 watt in triode) and a 40 watt amp(20 watt in triode) both are push-pull circuits.In my system both are bettered by an 8 watt SET.there`s no substitute for hearing amps in your own system. you are right in that YMMV 'strongly'. |
Spirit,
Def4 is snappier than Def2, which was pushed toward some tonal reticence when the excitable cabinet of Def1 was corrected. Everything up to roughly 12khz is output by the FRD (including whizzer). So a lot of what people hear as high frequencies benefits from the rather large performance gains realized from the nano-cone and the oomphier motor. Def4 brings back Def1's snap without the cabinet talk, with more speed and tone. The revelatory traits of 4 are instantly recognized over 2.
The Radian brings refinement to the very top end, much better spray, and restores real beauty to everything it outputs compared to any other dynamic super tweeter I can recall. All the detail; none of the irritation. But I think most of what will alleviate your perception of softness will come from the nano FRD, with the Radian playing a vital supporting role. The combination is forgiving of SS amp top end. Your Hovland combination is very good but you have to be prepared for the possibility that your perception of your electronics may change.
For example, the slightly forward tone of the Klimo Merlino Gold preamp was a perfect complement to Def2. Even with CCa tubes however, through Def4 that forwardness wasn't an asset. Small but actionable. So I changed that out for a 6sn7 preamp, and the system was a system again.
Phil |
Glory, still awaiting elaboration on your leading comment about Def 4s stock footers. What should I be thinking about? Stillpoints? Equarack footers? Wave Kinetics footers etc? |
Charles - yes, the 300b was noticeably "better" in my set-up. However, I have a huge space to fill, very long speaker cable runs (they are buried under the floor), and the Ancient Audio 300b seems to be a bit over-built. I enjoyed both the 45 and 2a3 amps, but they seemed strained. |
Phil, your comments continue to reassure me, since contrary to correct procedure, I've gone ahead and ordered the Def4s without having auditioned them first. I've been generally so impressed with the 2s over the last 5-6 years, that the promise of major performance improvements while maintaining all that's already so great about the Zu house sound, with yours and others uniformly positive comments makes me feel I haven't taken a major risk.
My new rim drive tt/linear tracking arm combo is checking out nicely, pretty happy with my cd, and my amps have never let me down (emphasised by your take that the 2s have contributed to lack of bite, not the Hovlands).
My remaining upgrades are possible change in cartridge direction to Soundsmith Straingauge, or keeping Zu 103/Transfiguration Orpheus, and updating phono stage, and then major look at racks/uprated balanced power.
I'm positive that the Def4s are going to give me a really fresh perspective on sound quality, and finally direct me to being happy with overall sound and end in sight for 15+ years of upgradeitis! |
Spirit,
Def4 Footers
I. Stillpoints Ultra SS
2. Sistrum SP-1 or SP -101
3. Equarack Footers I have 8 I can sell if interested. |
I don't have speaker footers, but just received a set of Wave Kinetics...to go under the amps. |
I
Cobra,
You write with
Do power cords make a difference? Well, yes, in that they tend to bring their own sound. But if an amplifier needs a specific power cord to sound musically-convincing, and without it it doesn't, then said power cord should be supplied with the amp if it is so elemental to the performance of the circuit. "Dude, you didn't have the right power cord..." doesn't cut it. I'm pretty sure even ASR wouldn't endorse that proposition.
But then I find this out about your past upgrades
My own Black Shadows are seven years old, and my Golden Dreams about ten years old. The Black Shadow have silver audio path wiring, but as far as I know, copper-wound transformers. The Golden Dream have silver wirepaths, and silver-wound transformer secondaries. These are "Level 6" Golden Dream. Two improvements have been made to both. A couple of years ago, seeking better bass discipline, I asked Bob Hovland to examine the amps' circuits, listen to them, and recommend component upgrades. He chose to leave the signal path alone but to change out the power supply electrolytics to Nichicon, specifically tall, slender Nichicons. In the Black Shadows, he found he could considerably beat the factory hum noise spec via custom shielding of the toroidal power transformer, so I had that done as well.
The recaps made the Black Shadow pair "more like themselves" without dramatic changes to overall signature. They just became better at what they were already good at: bursty, objective, expressive, toneful sound with deep, muscular bass, blissful midrange realism, spatial honesty, smooth and extended top end; convincing tonal and dynamic realism on my Zu Definition speakers. The recaps instigated a much bigger improvement to the Golden Dream pair. The GD is an ultra-resolving amplifier that's also loaded with expressive tone. But the stock GD, like most 300B amps, brings with it some bass bloat, which varies by what tubes you use, but it's there. That euphonic fatness in the bass certainly fills a room but it's sloppier than it ought to be. Above 70Hz or so, fine. Below that -- and on something like a Definition, this is obvious -- bass loses objectivity.
So you see 23 you say one thing and do another. If ASR should then Audion should. You have lost my attention 23!
I
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23,
You write
I don't think ASR makes bad amplification. I just can't listen to its truncated, desiccated tone. I don't doubt for a second that ASR sounds fine -- until you hear better, and until a listener thinks seriously about how music actually sounds. It's pretty good for SS, bested by just a few others in that topology. Build quality is *very* high. At its price and even lower, however, there are better alternatives for approaching the original sound. It really doesn't matter that we don't agree. You'll put the ASR in your rear view mirror sooner or later, too, just like every other amp you've championed in the past. It's OK! Enjoy it while you can. You're in the realm of the white hats with your speakers anyway.
the ASR in your rear view mirror sooner or later, too, just like every other amp you've championed in the past.
Sounds like you are pissed about something here 23. I went from HOT OTL amps I loved to the cool running ASR amp that was as good and if not better. Remember I live in FL 23? HOT here. I am not married to ASR and if I move on someday that doesn't mean the ASR is trash nor the OTL amps. I champion OTL amps and ASR and I am sure there are plenty more out there to champion. |
23,
You write,
It's not a popularity contest. A few people or even many liking a sound isn't persuasive to me. You have to convince me first you know what real instruments sound like in unamplified circumstances for me to assign any special credibility to your view of ASR
Really Cobra? I don't think I need to convince you about anything audio. Your writings and hypocrisy has destroyed your credibility with my circle of friends and myself. |
>>So you see 23 you say one thing and do another. If ASR should then Audion should. You have lost my attention 23!<<
The difference is, the Audion Black Shadows sound fully credible stock, and they are not inordinately affected by power cords. And since I took it upon myself to investigate power supply capactior upgrades, I communicated this back to Audion and they are running their own listening test to determine whether they want to incorporate same in future stock. But I didn't NEED the cap upgrades to enjoy the amps nor to render them musically convincing. Everything can be improved, but if there is an external dependency for an amp to sound convincing, then that should be supplied.
Now on the Golden Dreams, the capacitor upgrade made a bigger difference, which led me to now consider the Golden Dream a full-frequency amp, which I previously cautioned was compromised in deep bass performance. Above 100Hz, however, Audion Golden Dream monoblocks were and remain among the very best hifi amplifiers ever made, by music criteria, with or without the recap.
Phil |
