Audiophile quality streamer/server-in-one without a DAC. Does this exist?

I actually have a brand new one for sale with a 1 TB SSD ($500 option) and I may consider even throwing in the .5M W4S i2s cable as part of the deal.
https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649500214-wyred-4-sound-ms1-music-serverstreamer/

2. digital
3. 129460-84060

Hey Josh, I'm sure you have this figured out by now, but with your interest in W4S why not one of their music servers? There is the original style, which looks like your W4S DAC (cheaper being used) or there is their new model, the MS1 but it starts at $3000. 

I use Raspberry Pi SBC as end-points for my networked music system. I have found the Allo DigiOne SPDIF to my Multibit DAC to provide the best Diversity and Emotion in my Music. You build a RasPi/Allo with a clean PSU for under $200.

Facts proof that many networkplayers/streamers with an inbuild dac can create a higher level in diversity. Facts also proof that USB is not a great choice for audio.

The level in diversity is very low by the use of USB. And no cable, powersupply or clocklink can solve this limitation.

Audio is all about shootout and the things you can hear. The emotion is inside the music. Each source was is better in revealing all the emotion of the music wil be prefered by each single person.

Audio is all about facts and what you can really hear and reveal. When you hear most separate dacs and streamers there is almost no diversity in sound.

We are not talking about personal preferences. No human being prefers a networkplayer or dac with less diversity. It is a fact that diversity in sound influences our emotion for the biggest part.

Most people believe that 0/1 are always the same and it does not matter how you connect it the sound will be the same. Audio is not based on what you think or what people say.

No it is based on what you really can hear and reveal. Because the sound you hear always tells the truth. The source who can reveal more layers and diversity in sound will be prefered by each single human being.

That is why people need to learn how instruments ans voices sounds in real. When you want to understand audio, first you need to understand music.

The facts show and proof that most dacs and sources does not sound as in real. The people who bought these products often have no idea what they are missing.

Diversity in sound will make the same music so much more intense and emotional.

There is nothing as powerful as a computer as an audio streamer. However, a computer is not a good audio device since it is electrically noisy. My solution to this is to use the Sonare mircoRendu or SonicOrbiter (I have 2 rooms with speakers). Put your computer in another room. Hook up the Sonare to your Ethernet either by a direct connection or a Powerline adapter (uses copper wiring in your house for Ethernet).

You need a DAC for this solution but I would recommend that you sell your passive LS50 (I also own these) and buy the new ACTIVE LS50 with built in DAC. Hook it up to the Sonare. Done.


"The LS50 Wireless includes an end-to-end 192kHz/24-bit high-resolution digital signal path with two dedicated digital-to-analog converters per channel, for a total of four. Each speaker features a bi-amp dual-mono configuration (200 + 30 watts per speaker) and streaming preamp, so no wires are required to connect the two. A time-correcting DSP crossover makes sure that everything stays in sync."

I spend a few hours on listening to new music each single week. I have spend about 10.000 euro on new music in the last 3,5 years of time. I have to admit I am addicted to music :). We are talking for about 98% in streams what I bought.

I use IPV so I can buy music all over the world. I listen to many different kinds of music; pop, rock, jazz, classical music, blues and also electronic music.

The great thing about now is that you can buy a lot of great music and also often at a high level in recording quality.

Even many great 16 bit 44.1 khz can sound very analogue like.

Diversity in sound has nothing to do with what kind of music you like. It depends more on the digital source you use and the rest of your audio system.

First you need to understand which parts music owns and how you can create these in your audio system.

The focus should be on how music sounds and is being formed in real. You need all the properties to be able to create an audio system what comes as close as possible to the ’real’ sound and stage as well.

I said it many many times overhere. Most audio systems sold in the world are still 2-dimensional. I can ask a very simple question to all people who own a 2-dimensional system?

Did you ever hear live music with a stage less than 1 metre like all 2-dimensional audio systems create?

Here you have the answer....

Compare an acoustic recording with just a voice and a guitar between a 2-dimensional system vs the same music with a 3-dimensional system.

Then you will learn and understand what 3-dimensional sound does with the voice and the guitar. It will make the voice and sound so much more intimate and intense during listening.

This is an important part to creat a higher level of emotion during listening.

DIVERSITY in sound also has a great influence on our emotion. Layering in sound influences your emotion. So when you use a digital source what is not able to create a lot of layers in sound, people always use the word; it is not musical, or it sounds dead and others say; there is no connection to the music.

In most situations this is caused by the lack of diversity in sound. Many people prefer a turntable. This is also based on the fact that the turntable can create a great level in diversity.

The good thing is that even in digital sources you can create a much better level in diversity these days. On the other hand, most digital sources are not good to create diversity.

We think and work in options which can be used. And we never will use any audio product what is not able to create a high level in diversity in sound or is not able to create a 3-dimensional stage.

Audio is all about choices, and you need to create an audio system being build on the right properties. Because when you listen to your system at home, you will listen to all the different properties of each single part in your audio system togheter including the acoustics.

And that is why you need to understand and become aware of the properties of each single part in your system at home. When you do not know these properties, you will not understand why the stage and sound is what you hear.

When you do understand how your system is being created by the different properties and the acoustisc, audio becomes a lot more easy to understand.

This makes is more easy to adapt so you can create a higher level in sound realism. When your system will own more different properties as music owns in real, the level in emotion and intensity during listening will increase.

This way audio can be used so much more effective.

 bo, Have you ever noticed different reactions according to what kind of music people listen to ?

Unfortunately I’m reminded once more of the South Park character Mr. Hankey the Christmas poo. It was based on Trey Parker’s early toilet training. He refused to flush the toilet, and his father told him that if he did not flush down his stool, which he called "Mr. Hankey", it would come to life and kill him. But sometimes they just keep circling the bowl.

@bo1972 .. so, what you're telling us is we need YOUR brand of diversity?

Sad, but apparently none of us feel any emotion when listening with our digital garbage. I'll go throw all my gear in the trash now. 

We are a different company in audio. In the last 2,5 years I did a lot of research in many different aspects of audio.

In 2016 I started to focus on diversity in sound as well. Most digital sources have no emotion and lack of diversity in sound. This is a serious problem. It is not possible to reveal the emotion of the music when a source is not able to create diversity in sound.

In 2016 we visited an audio show. There were over 30 rooms with audio. All rooms proved that there was no diversity in sound. I spoke with many distributers and people who visited the show. Many said; all sysems had no emotion. There was not even one system what made real music.

It is very clear that there is a main reason why people react this way. Because they are so right. The thing is; nothing will be changed next time. They are not able to correct it. When you don’t understand music you never will understand audio either.

We always want to create the best quality for the money. The focus is on creating audio with a heart. So people can experience the emotion of the music.

Digital can be exceptional good these days. We modify streamers and powersupplies to create a more diverse sound. Everything we sell needs to outperform in sound and quality each other product in it's price level.

We are Lumin dealer and we modify Onkyo networkplayers. And we also modify SBooster powersupplies.

What digital do you like bo ? Or all analog ?

I am working in audio for almost 19 years of time. The knowledge in music and in how music sounds in real is a lot less than it was in the past.

When I speak to my clients and the things we hear from dealers and distributers is that digital audio is in many situations not the quality people hope to find or hear.

I sold my Meridian 800Daxv4 in 2012 (over 20.000 euro new) and I wanted to buy a networkplayer/streamer.

But....everything I auditioned had almost no diversity in sound. I a period of about 6 months I auditioned a lot. At the end there was not even one I wanted to buy. I thought, if this is the quality it offfers I prefer not to buy any streamer/networkplayer.

Now in 2017 it is not a lot better. Many shows we visit have demoes that all systems have no diversity in sound.

When the people who buy audio have no idea what diversity in sound is and what it does, they have no idea what is missing.

So What is missing?

The most important part to create emotion for all human beings is DIVERSITY. This is the layering in sound, what influences our emotion for the biggest part.

I wrote with people who develope and create dacs and streamers. They said; USB is not a great choice for audio. The facts proof that the level in diversity is very poor.

When people who work in audio have no idea what diversity is and does they can easily sell digital audio without diversity.

When you let people hear the difference between digital audio with a stunning level in diversity in sound and with almost no diversity in sound, I can garantee that no one will choose any digital source with a low level in diversity.

Music is all about emotion, most dacs/networkplayers are not able to reveal the emotion of the music. This is F. insane that it is even being sold. The emotion is only inside the music.

What audio needs is to show people how music works and sounds in real. And to show what diversity does to our emotion.

Bluesound is like Senseo coffee. But when you want the full emotion and taste you want and need an italian coffee. This will give you so much more flavor and intensity.

When I would sell Bluesound to my clients, it would be time to look for another job. I see it as my task to create and sell emotion. And give people a system what sounds like how music sounds in real.

And never sell any kind of digital audio without diversity. The facts proof that people will rather stop after a matter of time using their audio system.

People need quality and you need to give them emotion. Most digital systems are not able to reveal the emotion the music possesses.

I just want to thank Mahler123, Neal, Jeff, Josh, Ryspyder and everyone else who responded with such helpful and patient advice to my questions. I will further research all of your suggestions. This makes much more sense to me now. I truly appreciate your time, thoughtfulness and generous collegialiity. 

With kind regards,

Mark Hubbard
Eureka, California

@joshelston Before I had Bluesound I used to have a 2012 Mac mini that would run JRiver as a server. I could then use my iPad or iPhone with the JRiver app to connect and stream my music. Doing that, though, I always felt it to be a pain to add files since I didn't have a monitor for my Mac mini. I would have to use Remote Desktop to get in, and boy, was that slow.

With the Bluesound, I wanted to start with the Vault II to centralize my collection. I love that it finds artist files and album covers and rips cds automatically. I then wanted to buy a Bluesound Pulse II for the kitchen so I could enjoy music around my apartment. That led to a Node in the bedroom, another Pulse II in the dining room, and now I can hear music around the house when I need to walk around while being interrupted from a serious listening session. It also makes my library accessible in other rooms even when it's not a serious listening session.

To be honest, I'm not sure why people pay so much more for streamers and servers like Aurender. I feel like you get so much more innovation, quality and improved user experience with Bluesound. It does play MQA, streams lossless files up to 24-bit 192Khz with no downsides, and extends to other applications like Spotify, Tidal and a ton of others.

With with due respect to our dealer at soundscience, and to others that think a music server sounds better than a CD player as a transport, I think most of the sound will be determined by the DAC.  I use 2 DACs, the Mytek Manhatten and the Bryston BDA 3.  The Bluesound and the Oppo 105 sound equally good in both DACs.  There are  slight difference for both DACs between the 2 sources, but not enough that I care about.
   This of course depends on the DAC manufacturer devoting equal attention to the respective inputs.  I have had some DACS that have poor sounding USB inputs compared to the other inputs

Three years ago, I had no clue about computer audio. I got a used Benchmark Dac-2 with a USB input, and set to work doing research. There is a learning curve, but it really isn’t hard.

I would find a local dealer who sells Aurender, he can explain it all to you, help pick out the right model, and show you how to use your laptop for ripping, and transferring them to the Aurender.
Don’t buy anything that does not do hi-rez and DSD, you will find music that is only available as downloads, or by buying the download you are able to get the higher rez version. A good example of this is Jerry Garcia Band Volume 8. I was able to get the 24/88 download. That is just one example

Aurender, Antipodes, or one of the Brystons would all be good choices. Beware of small niche companies, if the owner dies, that might be the end of the company, so no more support or firmware uprades.
I have seen and heard the Music Vault, although in an unfamiliar system. I thought the operating system was more like a PC, than a strict music player.
If you are not in a hurry, PS Audio is working on a music player that will output I2S to their DACs. I don't know  about price, but it should be a very good piece, and I think it will include a transport for ripping.

If I read correctly you have four systems, are hoping to play on all of them? That would require a network accessible player. Do you move the laptop around to the other systems?
If not, an Aurender in the "100" series will be ideal.
I would buy an Aurendert, or wait for the PSA player, if my budget allowed.

Aurender W20 
simply awesome 

@thiefoflight  glad to hear that you are happy with the Bluesound. what did you have before you had the Bluesound?  

@cyanii Naim makes both streamers and servers but not one combined.  Which is the criteria for my search.  

@rspyder:  Thank you for the suggestion.  I have heard of them and they are generally out of my price range but maybe I'll be able to find something used.  

@ mark_hubbard.  For me, computer audio is really all about convenience.  When portable audio become so popular music quality went down.  However, more and more good online content is now available (Tidal, as an example) and higher end audio companies are making stuff that optimizes online (think streaming, like your netflix reference) and computer based audio (think server, files stored locally on your hard drive).   To have multiple systems throughout your house, putting all your music onto a server that you can access from all your systems without having to carry the same CD from one room to another could be a fun-er way of doing things.  If carrying CDs and Vinyl around the house doesn't bother you and the sound you get from your systems cranks your cheese-wheel then no need to dive into this.  

I will say this about computer audio.  Because it is more convenient, and the quality is quite good I find that I listen to more music.  For me, that's a win.  

In terms of replacing a computer as a file server with a built for purpose audio device that includes a bit perfect ripper, I would recommend Antipodes.  Looked at others and found it was the best in my hunt.  I have the DX and it is excellent.  Operates with Roon and has Tidal.

Ray

A music server like the Music Vault will sound better plugged into your DAC than the overwhelming majority of CD players and transports.  
The Music Vaults come with a optical drive (blue ray) that allow you to insert your CD and copy it.  Once copied the data from your CD is played back through RAM which lowers the digital jitter to vanishingly low levels providing analog like sound with superior dynamic range and fatigue free listening and great imaging.  They are mechanically silent during playback allow you to create playlists of your favorite music for any occasion etc. the lists goes on and on. Better sound better convenience and a selection of music that far exceeds most peoples personal library.

Feel free to contact me with any questions you may have.
neal@soundsciencecat.com
720 308 4000 

Mark
You have great gear in your home already.  You don't 'need' a music server unless you want to have one.  It is a matter of convenience.  If you wish to eliminate CDs and acces your albums with something like an iPad then get a server.  In general, it will not sound any worse than playing the album through the CD player unless you rip the CDs with a lossy format such as MP3.
  I also listen to Classical.  Music server software doesn't work that great for Classical.  If you don't mind rifling through your CDs to find your disc, then you are fine

OK, I'm even behind Josh in my understanding of all this. Does "app" mean you have to have a smart-phone or iPad to control your music server? What *is* a music server? We have about 2,000 CDs of mostly classical music and three or four good stereo systems in our home (our Rowland system is currently not set up). I think I understand what ripping a CD means - you "copy" it to the SSD or hard drive on your computer. Then what? I used to edit for people with doctorates ;-), and I too feel extremely foolish asking these questions. I'm trying to grasp the advantages of owning a music server. I already own four outboard DACs, so that won't be an issue unless I'm missing something. I assume streaming is something like Netflix for audio. Does a music server connect wirelessly to the internet via a home router? Does it require a monitor, mouse and keyboard like a regular computer? What type of software does it use? Is the sound at least equal to Redbook CDs? Please point me to further reading if you can. I don't expect any of my colleagues here to write me a book-length response. Our systems are currently Wadia > Audio Research tubed line stages > Levinson amps > various good speakers, subwoofers, etc. Would it make sense for us to add a music server? Thank you for your patience!

I build the Music Vaults which are complete server streamers.
They are made in Colorado :>) www.musicvaultcat.com
They come with the worlds best customer service too.

You may want to have a look at Naim servers like UnityServe or UnityCore, the come without Dac.

If you can find a Logitech Transport, buy it, with one caveat; mine is a bit rachitic - two seperate power-supply problems. It sounds very, very good, it's attractive and it's versatile. Mine runs a QNAP NAS with 2.2 Terabytes of music through an Arcam DAC with alacrity, something an Aurender N100H didn't do
It does Tidal, TuneIn yadda yadda. You'd like the original with the "Transnav" knob, but the SE is identical apart from lacking the knob, which is a 'damned handy way to find a particular bit of music quickly.  

I too have a Bluesound Vault II and could not be happier with it. It does have a built in DAC that is decent but I use the digital out to go into a Cary Audio DAC-100t tube DAC. I would not call it he Bluesound DAC cool, but straight up neutral. 

With the Bluesound not only do you get a streamer, but it can also expand to handle your home theater with the addition of their soundbar, sub, etc. 

I looked at most of the streamers that are mentioned in this thread and ended up with the Auralic Aries, I thought it had better sound quality than all of those mentioned without some of the gimmicks like 128/256G of flash. The Aries app DS Lightning is fantastic. You can hook up an external drive to it or what I did was to access a disk 100ft away that was hooked up to my old music server. I also used the Lumin iPad app to control the Aries up until the DS Lightning software was updated. 
I would no way have a spinning disk in my audio room again. Also, using ssd for a music server is also way over kill. I had the Aries hooked up to my W4S Dac2 DSD thru the USB. For the money this was a very good sounding setup.
i since upgraded to a directstream dac with the bridge II, much better sounding streamer/dac setup but it's also more expensive. I'd rather not use USB to the dac and using the bridge II inside the unit is using a i2s interface which is a better way to connect to a dac. 

Josh, I use a Mytek Manhatten DAC, Parasound Preamp and amp, and Oppo 105 as a transport system.  I also use a Bryston BDA-3 DAC for SACD only.  I also have a MacAir connected to the FireWire input of the Mytek.
i would not describe the Bluesound as cool.  It does not sound significantly different than any other digital input into the Mytek

@wardl : $5900?! I'll bet it is good.  And not for me.  That's more than my whole system combined.  Please enjoy it for me.  

@mahler123: what other equipment are you using with your blue sound?  Would call the blue sound on the cool side of neutral? I would say My wyred 4 sound system is.  Read that the bluesound was cool while the aurender is warm.  Any thoughts?  

@wardl :  I'll look into the lumin.  Haven't heard of it before.  Thank you for the suggestion.  

I am using the Lumin U1.  It is outstanding. 

Re Bluesound app
it isn't perfect.  It is constantly being updated and the updates do improve it.  I think that you have to put some effort into creating playlists because that makes it much easier to find an album.  I can't compare it to Sonos because I haven't experienced Sonos

Bluesound is under the Lenbrook umbrella which includes NAD and PSB and is based in Canada.

Def looking into aurender and bluesound.  Does anyone know the country of origin for each?  I think I read Aurender was German.  Have not come across that for Bluesound.  However, Bluesound price suggests "Far East".  Can anyone confirm?

" I don't think that not being able to play high-res files is that a big of a deal.  The promise of high-res was really cool to me but has turned out to be a great disappointment."

I agree. High rez is better, but you have to invest some time and money to get it right.

I owned the stock SONOS connect and did not bother to try any mods since I upgraded to Aurender N100H.  

I am not sure W4S / SONOS upgrade worthwhile unless you're able to take advantage of high resolution MQA albums now available through Tidal. Last time I checked, I did not see MQA albums accessible on SONOS app. You have a very nice DAC, I would pair with a streaming device that will allow you take full advantage of its capabilities. 

I would recommend Aurender or Blusound Node 2 / Vault. 

@mrotino , @lalitk 
Just saw this on the W4S site re: the modified Sonos
" This new custom board is installed in the SONOS and directly converts the I²S into up-sampled SPDIF. This new ultra clean low jitter signal is now available through both the Coax and Optical digital outputs. The SPDIF output's sample rate can be factory configured to 44.1, 48, 88.2, and 96kHz."

You had both mentioned that high-res wasn't an option with your Sonos.  Perhaps W4S has modified their modification of the Sonos to enable high-res?  I also have a W4S DAC2 with the I2S connection (not sure of the sonic value of this connection, but I at least have the hardware).  

Is this different than what you have/had?

For the modified sonos can you store files on it or is it just used to stream?  

I don't think that not being able to play high-res files is that a big of a deal.  The promise of high-res was really cool to me but has turned out to be a great disappointment.  I use Tidal to discover new music.  When I find new music I love I then go to high-res sites to see if it's available in high-res format.  Almost without fail the album I'm looking for is not available.  It could be my music tastes are weird.  If so, that's on me.  But, I can find them in CD form still. I've been trying to this method for 2-3 years now and have been disappointed time and again.  I haven't bought a high-res album in about a year and a half.  

The notion of a good control app seems like a big selling point that several people above have mentioned.  The aurender app sounds pretty awesome.  

Any thoughts on the Bluesound control app or the Sonos app?

Really appreciate all the thoughts here.  

Coming up on 10 years in the military and thinking about a celebration gift for myself...wife approval pending...

@joshelston,  As far setup goes, I started off with SONOS connect paired to Krell processor, then Aurender N100H / Modwright Elyse DAC.  And now, Aurender N10 with Audio Research DAC9. 

SONOS connect is a very versatile player and like others say, W4S Mod is well worth it if you have no desire to listen to high res files.  

I love the Aurender sound, so much so that I end up upgrading to N10. It's the most neutral sounding streamer, IMHO.  If you're going to spend mega bucks on a streamer, I would also look at streamers from Antipodes.  

You can find used N100H under $2K. I believe you will be very happy as long as you pair it with a decent SS or Tube DAC. Aurender app is best in the business outside 'fancy' Roon app. 

This might work for you.

http://www.resolutionaudio.com/?page_id=63

Ditto on Bluesound

for the money i think your first poster was spot on the bluesound vault 2 will do everything you need even though its got a dac just by pass it. its a good piece for future upgrades down the road. and the fact you can stream tidal from it controlled from their app which is pretty good as far as app's go.

@bubba12 - I think the only one *with* a DAC is the A10.  All the rest are just player/servers (apart from the little headphone amp/DAC and the Pre/Power/DAC combo).  They get pretty pricey though. :)

@joshelton - I wish I did have one.  Still dreaming ...

I think the mod itself was about $550 if you provide the Sonos. I think the Sonos is about $350

I read on the the Aurender N100H.  It looks EXACTLY like what I'm looking for.  Cost doesnt scare me away but it would be more than my amp and DAC combined. Finding a used one could be just the ticket...hooray for audiogon and craigslist.  Big thanks for that lead.  

@lalitk do you have an aurender?  What model?  You obviously like it.  How did you get to the aurender?  What was your previous setup?  How does your aurender compare?

I will also look into the Bryston bdp pi.  Thank you for the tip.  However, the comment about " just add your favorite outboard hard drive" deviates from my all-in-one solution I'm searching for here.  So, not exactly what I'm looking for.    

@jl35 how much was the sonos + the W4S mod all total?

Any others out there like the Aurender and the Bryston?

+1 for Aurender.  

 I am in the same situation. I looked at the  Aurender N100 and it only has a USB digital out. It needs a converter to work with some DACs like my Audio Research DAC8. The Bluesound has a digital RCA out so it can easily connect to non USB DACs or USB DACs that require software. The  SOtM sMS-1000SQ looks interesting. The digital version has both AES and RCA digital outs as well as USB.

dimora, I have a Synology NAS. How do you get from the NAS to the DAC? Do you use a USB cable? This sounds very interesting, can you tell me more about how this works? 

 Audio Stream has quite a few reviews and comparisons of audio streamers.
 http://www.audiostream.com/category/players-streamer-reviews