My brother has been complaining of late about the harshness of his CDs (hard clipping). If ever the time was ripe for an analog intervention this was it. Since his music listening has been via one of those integrated Bose units, I had to assemble a complete, stand-alone system. The goal was to keep it around $200 - and with the help of the Salvation Army, we came in under.
Anteed up a rim-drive Garrard Zero-100 that I purchased nearly two years ago for $90 in my “waiting for Lenco” phase. It came with a Grado green cartridge. After pulling out about 2 to 3 lbs. of automation and a full servicing, this Garrard was still too terrain intense underneath to mount into a solid plinth. Instead, I left it on ¾” dowel stilts and put a black fabric skirt (more like bunting) around it. Made a couple of modifications. One was to place the neon stroboscope lamp on a micro-switch circuit, activated by new linkage added to the “auto” toggle, so that it stays off unless selected. The second was to hardwire directly to clips/cartridge and by-pass the contacts on the sliding cartridge tray. This allowed correcting the azimuth which was way out of whack.
For turntable sundries, I bought him a new AudioQuest anti-static cleaning brush ($20) and Silly Putty (original version) for a stylus cleaner ($1.99). For a dust cover, I used the thick clear vinyl that comes with comforters purchased at department stores. Just had to unstitch two of the reinforced seams; cut to fit depth; then restitched.
My good buddy, Stephen does the rounds at the thrifts, picking up various vintage receivers and he brought over three to audition before I left for New York. A hulking Kenwood KR-4600 ($20.00) won out for its excellent phono stage and bass response.
Speakers came by way of the Salvation Army – a pair of Pioneer CS-470 sealed 3-ways in excellent shape ($20.00/pair). The bass on these is commanding, if a little out of control. But the low-end distortion is pretty natural sounding and easy on the ears. My wife helped out with a little refinishing on the cabs and I bought some new grill cloth ($8.95) plus glue (2.95).
The big score at the Salvation Army was in August when somebody dropped off a nice LP jazz collection – Miles, The Duke, Zoot Sims etc. I culled about 20 of these – all scratchless ($20).
So for $183, a pretty sweet sounding analog system with a starter collection of LPs.
Next week, I’ll head down to Southern N.J. to deliver the goods. In the meantime, the gear came with me to New York for a three-week long visit with another brother. The traveling analog show seems to have wowed another – so I may be doing this again.
Sailing on the Analog Sea. |
Hi All,
The stunning arrival of Jean’s latest endeavor prompted some nostalgic waxings for me last night (never a good ingredient for empiricism). But his post today reminded me that this was not so much about “passing the torch”, as about lighting other torches.
Certainly, “For those who can’t afford the moon,” (Grease-bearing 301), the venerable Lenco continues to be the best value option in getting to the music.
New age Lenco tinkerers, practitioners and theorists have not been sitting idle by their idlers while Jean has been honoring UK ancestry. A score of Rheinderspeter’s redesigned Lenco top plates will soon be on their way to experimenters across Europe and North America (including one for our prime host) . These laser cut steel plates will advance on new design territory in motor isolation and speed linkage, as well as deal a deathblow to the inherent weakness of the Lenco’s stock top plate. And this may be just the first run. I know Mike and I plan to use Peter’s steel plate as a template for hand cutting aluminum ones.
Jean’s listening assessment about the Rek-O-Kut Rondine mirrors conclusions that I have come to face over this and Presto’s design: That their thrust plate bearing motors cannot be tamed enough to quiet transmissions for rumble-free stereo play. Maybe Herculean efforts in motor transplants and idler wheel rebuilds to a more supple composition might work, but I’m not sure.
But there is one mono era American idler still left – The Metzner Starlight – and it continues to show promise. It has a 4-pole inductor motor that is quieter and higher cranking than the Lenco’s. Its hybrid puck drive isolates transmission along the motor/spindle/platter path by the very nature of the puck’s composition – rubber. And we all know well how to isolate transmission in the other direction (motor/plate/tonearm).
After kibitzing with a couple of other DIY Metzner owners on another forum site, it became apparent that we all suffered from a stop-you-in-your-tracks design flaw. All our machines had gross platter wobble because the soft platter spindle sleeves had “egged out” over the years. I suggested that a high performance auto shop might offer a solution with pressing in a new sleeve, machined from a hardened valve guide in a line box. Well one of the guys took this baton and ran with it. He got a cooperate machine shop, run by an older gent who recognized the project for what it was and did the deed for $50. So we press out, press in and press on.
- Mario
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Having actually seen Jean’s luscious Garrard 301, I have to stand by the original assessment that it is, in fact, “stunning” - no overstatement about it.
Our afternoon of listening at Jean’s digs, however, was taken up exclusively with Mr. Red which was quite a treat for me. (While Grant aka gjwAudio1 was there too, these impressions are solely mine and he should weigh in with his own take.)
Well, first the journalist in me was so much reduced by the subjective enjoyment of the session that I failed to objectively keep track of what combo was playing what – i.e. the Morch/Decca or the AS-R1/Denon DL-103“E”. But no matter – as this wasn’t a track by track comparison session to dig out the nuanced differences between the two (on which Jean has already reported) – but an audition where both armed combos were given free range to come “on song” by utilizing the Mr. Red based Lenco as a foundation and springboard.
My initial impression (and this will have to be for both arm combos as I was at a loss to discern the difference) was that this was a level of detail that defied the analog sourcing that I was listening to. This was a “digging out” that went beyond crisp/full frequency response and marched right into the field of quick paced timing and rhythm.
Non-analog descriptors came to mind like “attack & decay” – “tight envelopes” and digital “pace”. It was truly a listening experience that would have had many searching for a hidden SACD player. But if one listened carefully, the absence of truncation and clip allowed for a bloom that could only be analog.
For dessert, our amenable host outfitted the golden Morch Unipivot with the Grado Platinum woody. This produced a lush warmth that I was much more familiar with. Detail wasn’t lost, but was simply upstaged by the richness of what one might call a glorious “music hall” sound. The Grado promptly staked out its own turf in a field that would encompass all large ensemble recordings.
For me, there really wasn’t any issue of supercedence between the cartridge/arm combos. Each claimed its own laurel as an analog retriever. Before this session, my audition exposure to “detailed” retrievers was invariably linked to a “clinical” experience. Jean’s set-ups have changed all that. I love my Grados and someday soon, I’ll go Platinum. But I was so enthralled in what I heard from the D&D twins that I’m glad my Lenco plinth can host two arms.
We also were able to apply and test MuMetal on Grant’s Lenco platter in Jean’s system. This, I would call a qualified success. Success, in that it clearly provided a barrier to EMF induced hum on the Decca. Qualified, in that there was some slight hum in the first ¼” to ½” of play arc. This may have been attributed to:
1) That I had previously hammered out some slight ridging in this area. (Hammering, I would later learn, breaks down Mu shielding properties.)
2) The Canadian winter conspired to hamper a glue set-up temperature for an optimal meld to the platter.
3) Jean’s system was able to pick up a diminished “wrap-around” of EMF that I wasn’t able to pick up on my home system.
In the end, this was a wonderful and an all-around educational experience for me: Plumbing the depths of how this seemingly primordial means of recorded music can be retrieved in a magical way into something so full blown. I know there is a scientific explanation for each step along this analog trail – but somehow I can’t shake the notion that wizardry is somehow involved.
-Mario |
Wow, and you guys tag team too! If this is what you do for fun and diversion, must be a pretty hollow existence, eh? |
Hi Mike,
“Who Dat?” Really Mike, you’ve been far too south for far too long. Red Green is the lead in a Canadian comedy troop carried on many of the PBS TV stations up here. The show always includes some outrageous Red Green DIY project where he invariably ignores the premise of “Why would anyone want to do something like that?” – as in the case of outfitting a hulking 70s Buick with Gull Wing doors after yanking the stock ones off their traditional hinges with his trusty van and chains. After massive amounts of duct tape and cumbersome home brew hydraulics, he gets it to work – after a fashion.
We know that the unseen spouses behind these and other all-male shenanigans often assert some clout over what they’ll tolerate. So that we have the commencement (at the end of the show) of their Possum Lodge meeting starting out with the head-lowering Credo: “I am a man, but I can change, if I have to … I guess.”
I’ll endeavor to tie in this wildly off-topic ramble by aligning myself with Red Green as a “practitioner” in the old sense of the word on my DIY MuMetal experiment and not a scientist with all that much knowledge of the behavior of EMF – especially as it applies to the direction it takes at the shield edges. It is, however, a scientific given that what comes off those edges is highly intensified EMF because of the unabsorbing nature of the MuMetal. This has the potential of worsening the situation that we are trying to correct with Lenco motor induced hum. From this premise, I decided that shielding areas of the motor and/or top plate was impractical and I never tried it.
The critical question of EMF’s directional behavior at the shield edge is one I cannot answer with certainty. My only gauss meter is a Grado cartridge mounted in its intended environment. Does MuMetal blocked EMF act like a fluid with a degree of “wrap around” at the edges? The more I think about, the more I’m inclined to think that it does. The literature accompanying my MuMetal, while not specifically addressing the edge intensification as a “wrap around”, nevertheless implies in its caution that it does. Otherwise, why a caution at all, if blocked EMF continued outward on its blocked plane?
But Mike, don’t let my guesswork discourage you, another practitioner over something that I have only the thinnest grasp of. I’ve got a 12” by 4” sample of MuMetal (Hi permeability - and more, if you need it) that I’ll be happy to send along to you for the furtherance of Red Green science.
- Mario
|
Hi Mike,
Was trying to find information that related to secondary transmitters of EMF based on alloy ferrous content, but was unable to locate it again. Somewhere in researching this last year, I visited the whole question of whether unabsorbed redirected EMF off a MuShield would pose additional emitter difficulties as various metal alloys in the Lenco (platter, motor shaft, top plate) were permeated to the degree of iron in their respective mixes.
I do remember that it was of enough concern with the unknown (and unknowable?) alloy contents in various exposed Lenco parts to solidify a decision for going up top of the platter. Even then, I had concerns that the record spindle itself, might act as some RKO tower and omni emitter of interference. Thankfully, this is not the case, and one hears only a small amount of hum when the Gauss detecting Grado is directly over the spindle. Whether this is due to chrome plating of the spindle, or the brassy elements of the bearing sump, I haven’t a clue.
But I did come across a couple of notes today that should be highlighted as REVISIONS to the Lenco MuMetal recipe. (Grant & Chuck be advised)
1- It DOES matter which layer should be glued to the platter first. The thinner, low permeable foil should be closer to the EMF source and get pressed in first.
2- Hammering MuMetal reduces its effectiveness because it changes the crystalline structure of the alloy. Put your energies into cutting the MuMetal foils with a hard surface and many, many utility knife blades. Ridging of the cut edge is the bane of this project and must be avoided. It will not promote a smooth meld to the platter and its removal is problematic. Shearing often causes its own ridging.
In my application, I was able to get away with minimal shearing of edge burrs and some very light tapping with a hammer at the spindle hole.
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"Da Thread II" Year end Statistics:
520 Posts
76,267 Views
Nobody died.
Now for something completely different: A new Lenco - "Interstate l-75" in "My System"
- Mario |
Of course, one could also dispense with the Lazy Susan altogether and just plop this whole affair atop a VPI Scout and move to a new reality in crushing a belt drive.
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Hi Oregon,
Having neither the cart nor the arm, I'm only going to parrot what I've heard others report and what I would try in your position for starters.
The humble Denon DL103.
That is, if you're low-output capable.
Maybe others will chime in...
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Jean,
Where are my manners? Thank you for the very kind words, and as I wrote you in an e-mail, it’s what any Lenco renegade would do – but, perhaps a bit too renegade – in that I’m not all too comfortable fielding the header responsibilities with all of this (e-mails and tech queries) – I’m still a novice in some ways and you’ve got the full grasp of the global picture here.
Let’s hope that the restoring of the old thread is in sight at the good offices of AudioGon and that the confusion being experienced by newcomers will end.
Sail on, Admiral Nantais!
|
Hi Mike & Peter,
Gotta wonder whether the idler arm speed channel would get burred up over time with aluminum - not that I have much need to change or fine tune speeds - but I do use Peter's Post for idler wheel disengadging all the time - even to swap records.
But whatever material or design, I'm interested.
- Mario |
Hi Justubes,
According to LencoLand this turntable is belt-driven with a lightweight, stamped platter and a good deal of automation - perhaps, not a good candidate for "the conversion".
That said, if this turntable is already in your possession, it might be worth a closer analytical look in seeing what can be done to improve on it.
Would the motor's flywheel be convertible to channel a nylon thread? Is there room underneath the platter for adding a bit of symmetrical weighting/dampning?
If so, and you're willing to work on it, this might turn out to be decent retriever.
If I'm not mistaken, the IC denotes a much improved tonearm - an S-shaped tube with an SME (non-detachable) headshell - a gimbled "modern" looking affair.
There are so many CD players in need of replacement out there, that any analog orphan can find a deserving home.
|
Hi Justubes,
That would be L-75, L-78, L(GL)-88, L-(GL)-99.
There are other earlier models with heavy platters, but plastic idler wheels which are prone to warping like the L-61, L-68 and L-70 which shouldn't be dismissed as out of hand. I've got an American badged Bogen/Presto L-61 that has sounded great in unplinthed, temporary duty.
Retread the idler tire with an O-ring and it was off and running. Currently getting this wheel re-built after finding a reasonably priced re-building service.
If you're in the hunt, make Blue-In-The-Face's site a "Favorite":
http://www.btinternet.com/~a.d.richarson/hifi/lenco/heavy_lenco.html |
Hi Widge,
At first blush, this sounds like a mono hook-up either bridged (grounds and hots married) or static. How many catridge clips are at the headshell? How many tonearm wires are at the phono to pre "junction"? A longways back someone posted pics of one these console jobs - but I don't remember seeing anything with the tonearm wiring.
- Mario |
Well, I decided to visit the good offices of AudioGon this morning which happen to be in my hometown, at least, the nuts and bolts part of the mission. After getting over the novelty of a virtual member dropping by the virtual mothership (a first, I was told), I had a pleasant chat with the moderator on duty.
Sadly, it appears, that despite gallant efforts, the old “Despot” thread has not been found and the likelihood of its recovery is growing doubtful. It also appears that the new thread will continue to fall under AudioGon’s now universal policy of moderator review on all postings.
It is my belief that AudioGon should not be second-guessed over exercising their prerogatives in this matter. We’ve had a long run and AudioGon has provided an excellent platform to allow us to have our unfettered discussions.
It is about how and whether this run should continue that we should now calmly reflect on.
My case for pressing on, is rooted in a meaning of continuum – to flow like an uninterrupted river with tributaries and distributaries. People get on or off at their pleasure – but this “old man river” needs to keep rolling along for many of us. The alternative, I fear, will be the occasional Lenco/Idler related post that will be short-lived and thin soup because of its fleeting nature and lack of full, round table discussions. The “Despot” thread has been a Kiosk and it is ours. We’ve known it would be there as surely as the rising sun, and it has allowed us to build a hobby into something a little more special. It has been the long term camaraderie, I believe, that has lent it that special luster – allowing people to check back in, catch up and be genuinely welcomed.
By the way, welcome back Bornin!
My selfish stake in this is only wanting that continuum. There is no stake for me as being “the leader of the pack” – because I’m not. I just happened to restart the thread because of desperation over its absence, an act that I’m beginning to regret. There are others far more knowledgeable than I.
But as Jlin has demonstrated, there are archives that can be called on, even if some of that knowledge base has elected to depart, for the time being, over the unfortunate, yet understandable row that has developed.
About that row, I will only say this. Jean’s control had its purpose in establishing the discipline over his innovations as he (and most of us) applied them to the Lenco. New innovations by new originators have, at times, been encouraged, cautioned or discouraged, under Jean’s close (too close - for some) tutelage. The results of these innovations have sometimes been applauded and sometimes ignored. The course of human dynamics of the whys and hows in all this is too great a minefield to warrant further treading. But I’ll only add this: Innovation is what the original thrust was about – and it should continue to have its day in its furtherance. |
Hi Goughary, and welcome to "Da Thread II",
Sure glad we have another archivist in our midst. A well done coup in capturing all that! I'm sure many of us will be calling on you for copies.
As for your Bogen Lenco, Mike Greene and I both use the Sonus Formula IV unipivots on our Bogens - his is a 70 (I think) and mine is a 61 (I think). This arm is the longer tube version of the Mayware and it matches up nicely for spindle to pivot mounting distance on these early top plates. The stock mounting armhole of the Bogens will be just a couple of mms larger than the Sonus stub. This was close enough not to bother with a subplate armboard (at least, for me). Two fender washers (one plastic/one neoprene) do a fine job in securing the arm once the overhang has been set.
The VTA is a close call with these low-slung Lencos even with the Sonus adjusted to its lowest limit. The armlift mechanism will just about bottom out on the top plate depending how tall the cartridge is. |
Hey Kim,
Looking Good! What's that beautiful gnarley wood on the sides? What are all the woods that you used? How's the Sumiko acting as a retriever? Do you have it set up with or without the dampning fluid? So many questions ....
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Came back home last night after a month of travels to find a package (with postage stamps!) waiting for me on the hall table – the plastic idler rebuild for my Bogen/Presto Lenco-L-61. It was performed by a semi-retired gentleman in Mississippi named Ed Crockett to whom I have no affiliation other than being a very satisfied customer. The rubber rebuild is identical in both plane profiles as the original. (Note: Always save as much of the original rubber as possible to send into any rebuild service) The tire is supple, yet firm. It takes about three weeks and costs $25, which includes return shipping. Anybody interested in this service can e-mail me for details.
My next step is to rethink the material for dampening the wheel. Unlike Lenco metal wheels, the plastic ones have (4) 90-degree pie wedge recesses on one side that just beg for some kind of treatment. Initially, I applied a self-adhering rubber butyl called “Kool Patch”, but I think this may have added a little too much mass to the wheel. Lately I’ve been thinking of using the roofing product called “Ice Guard” (kind of a poor man’s Dynamat) – a thin matt that is rolled on roofs in place of felt over eaves (under shingles) to prevent ice damning. It has an adhesive on one side and can be cut with scissors. The big drawback with this product is that it has a tendency to spew out tiny bits of mica, asphalt and fiberglass – hardly the stuff you want dropping into a Lenco motor. So I’m thinking of sealing it once in place on the plastic idler wheel. Any suggestion for a sealant? An enamel lacquer?
After my older brother’s jaw was retrieved from the floor while listening to the humble little analog system that I set him up with a few days ago (headed by a Garrard Zero-100 rim drive), I could almost swear that there were tears welling up in his eyes as he grooved to his old beloved Stan Getz LP. Reaching around his back, I grasped his far shoulder and intoned, “I know… I know. It’s the long lost sound of analog that’s come back like an old friend”. |
Hey Mike & Fishwinker,
If this is for a Euro set-up, you might want to take a look at the photo in this thread:
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=148&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
Just realize that the wires labeled going to 220V will, in fact, be broken by the switch.
- Mario |
Hi Fishwinker,
The switch capacitor shunts the surge that sends a "pop" through the system speakers without it. Bridging the two switch leads at the terminal block with a replacement capacitor will not bypass the switch.
Hang in there.
Mario
|
Johnnantais,
Allow me to intoduce you to Jimmy Neutron and his ARK.
http://www.jimmyneutron.org/ARK%20part%201.htm
- Mario |
It was remiss of me to neglect the comments of my wife, JoAnn, who had a chance to listen to Jean’s Mr. Red for about 15 minutes. She has asked me to post this in addendum:
“Everything was so clear. Each instrument stood both separately and in harmony - like a chord where each note can be distinguished. It was a wonderful sound.”
JoAnn, I should add, has become quite adept at spinning vinyl on both my manual Lencos as well as threading up tapes. She rarely plays a CD if there is an analog alternative and acknowledges the “Living Presence” has grown on her. When I prodded recently whether she might be another HoltyHelen in the making, she demurred. “You build it and I will listen.” |
Oops! A simultaneous posting with Chuck's.
Hi Chuck,
The top application will be much easier. No flanged casting supports to contend with, nor that tricky area around the bearing hub interface. Also, there's the question of idler wheel getting proper purchase on the slick MuMetal.
The combined thickness of the two foils is .01" - no geometric threat to tracking, whatsoever.
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Hi Mike,
We actually considered what you suggested. However, there were no closets in Jean's realm - only open architecture. Our only options for restraints were 24 ga solid core and duct tape.
- Mario
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Hi Plinko,
You're correct. Many of us use rubber/latex infused waist band cloth in place of the spring. Can be purchased at most sewing supply sections in department stores.
Stops another resonant transmission path. Also, tension setting (where you tie the knot onto the post) is infinately variable.
More from me soon. Currently weighed down with massive redistribution of consumer goods.
- Mario |
Tres bien, François! Your fabrication work and photography continues to be of the "highest caliber". How about going a little more open-source with some of your reference sections for all to see?
All best,
Mario |
Happy New Year All!
In the four months of this "Da Baby Thread" -
217 Posts - 21,701 Views.
May all your contributions be posted quickly in the coming year - a year shaping up to be filled with innovation and discovery.
Sail on, oh ships of Lenco, oh fleets of Idlers.
|
Hi GP49,
It's possible that Ed Crockett held onto the old PVC tire that I sent along to him for reference with mine last year. If not, it's not super critical especially if you can trace the "V" profile. Diameter can be an "in the ballpark" matter - as the speed transfer from motor spindle to platter is linear.
- Mario |
Lewm,
It's quite possible we may be left with a "Who was that Masked Man?" situation with Mosin.
But he did leave this part reveal about the "Backstage Pass" over at Lenco Lovers yesterday:
Andy,
Thanks for the kind remarks. I certainly appreciate them, and I share your pain for having too many projects, but not enough time.
My turntable started as a Bogen B61 which is the US equivalent of an older Lenco model. I selected it because the metal was thicker, and for no other reason. However, as the project progressed, more and more of the original turntable began to disappear. Soon, almost all was gone, and everything that remained was seriously modified. Most was dispensed with, altogether.
The linkage, for example, became a single articulated assembly which serves as a turn-on lever for the motor, and also engages the idler. The Lenco idler was completely scrapped in favor of a scratch-built assembly. The spindle and its bearing assembly were also severely modified to reduce noise, and to accommodate a new platter arrangement. The platter is a combination of part of the original, but with the addition of rubber sides and a non-compliant top. There is no mat, and while I prefer a lightweight clamp, the arrangement plays fine without one. My primary goal was to make a nice Lenco turntable that avoided the issue of VTA with the cutoff top plate corner, etc., but I went wild, and designed a tonearm module that can be quickly replaced with other ones without the fuss of alignment and other setup steps. The plinth is Baltic birch, but with a few strategically placed damping materials that work in conjunction with the turntable's integrated isolation platform. The bottom platform is not attached to the top, but the top sits on three pucks made from a slightly compliant extruded material, and the platform itself has four adjustable feet. All the horizontal sides are clad with a thin layer of black acrylic, but the sides are acrylic paint that was precisely matched to blend with the top and other horizontal surfaces. Those surfaces, all four, were rubbed to match the adjacent paint. The isolation platform is tuned to the resonances of the turntable, as best I could without sensitive measuring devices, and it is made from seven different materials. Because I like unipivot tonearms, I wanted a quick way to level the turntable. I thought level vials set into the top would be nicer than the typical bubble level. The yellow color added a nice contrast, and they are easily read. I am really happy with how that idea turned out. The light is powered by 3V LEDs that get their power from an external wall wart type power supply. That's what the additional connector is for on back of the plinth. The graphics are silver when the turntable is off, and blue when it is on. Internal mirrors diffuse the light. I hope I have covered everything.
Regards,
mosin
Needless to say, there's a full-court press going on over there to get more information. I'm not so sure it will be forthcoming.
I have growing sympathy for Win's (Mosin) predicament. On the one hand, he probably is justifiably proud of his miraculous accomplishment and wants to share that part of it, for the pats on the back he so richly deserves. Who wouldn’t? On the other hand, revealing too much may open up areas to an uncontrolled collective he deems proprietary to his design. Adding to this is his history with Jean Nantais – that rightly or wrongly he feels has been a rip. Damn me for being a fence sitter on this – but that’s an area to be settled (if ever) between the two of them.
But after a lot of re-reading and reflection, I must come down off the fence on this. Jean’s 8-10-07 post from Jerusalem was baiting and spoiling for a fight – and he got it. It would seem to me that one can’t refer to groups of people as tree-dwelling, feces-slinging Cretins, in addition to other disparaging remarks, and not expect to be venomously attacked. Our Kiosk is public, with no one-way filter. What goes around, comes around.
I’ll not ref one of those showdowns again.
- Viva Pacem
- Mario |
Hi Goughary,
My BPL-61 (forerunner of the L-70) has a spindle to pivot distance of 225mm. Your ATP-12T calls for a 242mm mounting distance. That extra 17mm would take you back to the corner of the plate. Depending how big of a mounting hole the AT needs, you might just be able squeeze it on.
- Mario |
Nice Post Turboglo. And having the courage to pursue this at all costs. Any chance of posting some of this in a "System" thread so that we can take a gander?
- Mario |
Hi Turboglo,
Here at AudiogoN they've got special "forum" called virtual systems. It allows you to upload pictures and descriptions of various components in your audio system. Once you complete the start-up of "My System", the little blue link that appears after your user name will have "System" added to "(Threads|Answers)".
- Mario |
This is so true about the stock Lenco’s ability to engrave its bold presence in our listening rooms. So much so, that early on in the original thread there were quite a few reports of procrastination because of it. Many of these Lenco pioneers were so smitten with the stock “iron fist in velvet glove” treatment to music retrieval, that some plinth builds languished for awhile. It was as if Ulysses Nantais had neglected to cover the ears of his crew to these seductive sirens songs. There were grumblings among the men - “Can it really get any better than this?”
Well, of course, time went on - plinth builds proceeded and the answer to those early grumblings was a resounding, “yes!”
My confession for today is that while I promptly sank a Lenco L-75 into a mass, constrained plinth - complete with direct coupling and two tonearms, I have another Lenco – a BP L-61 - that has been on stilts for nearly two years in my basement workshop system. It was sent to me as a trash unit for parts. I cleaned & lubed all the proscribed workings: Took an unruly, noisy motor and made it quiet: Got a wonderful the idler tire rebuild for $25: Reaffixed a broken idler arm anchor to the speed adjustment sled.
The tonearm was replaced with a Sonus Formula IV unipivot that was a perfect fit for the Bogen/Presto placed armhole. The Sonus, a longer tube version of the Mayware, sports a Shure V15Vxmr (of which the replacement styli buy-up and hording seems complete and criminal). A modest Marantz 2230 receiver drives a pair of Rectilinear speakers of unknown model designation. The music all this produces is so enthralling, that it seems vastly out-of-place for my humble basement.
There are plinth plans for this L-61. The marble for the outer shell that will envelope a traditional mdf/birch-ply sandwich, has already been dimensionally cut. Large, internal borings and epoxy fills to the inside of the 7/8” marble shell will be my attempt to break up any potential resonance from the marble.
Those are the plans anyway - which continue to languish amidst the siren songs of this stilted Lenco.
- Mario |
A Rek-O-Kut Rondine with a metal motor pulley/spindle? Jean, you certainly live a charmed life! The audio Gods atop Mount Idler certainly seem to take a shine to you. I won't be suprised if some day you crack open a newly arrived Lenco and discover a golden idler wheel.
I thought we had the same Rondines. Mine has no model designation - but has the huge chrome selector knob, faux faceted ruby run indicator and red script lettering. Is yours the B-12? |
Hi Stephanl,
I can vouche for the entire Prestige Grado line short the Woody Platinum (which I haven't had the pleasure of trying). Even the lowly Grado Black is one powerfully lush and musical cartridge. Best bang for the buck - hands down.
However, my love affair with Grado has pressed me to MuMetal my Lenco platter because of induction generated EMF hum. This inadequate shielding was a conscious decision on Joe Grado's part when he chose not to copy Shure's cart grounding along the ground signal path because of "coloration". He was right, in my opinion, but some TT motors do produce a noticeable hum because of it, the venerable Lenco being one of them. Just so you know... (if you don't already).
While you're back checking in, I wanted to ask you a question regarding the innate anti-skate of the Rega 300 tonearm. You were the first person to draw this to my attention, which I confirmed by removing the magnet. Do you suppose this phenomenon is caused by the offset bearing placements?
Thanks,
Mario |
Hi Lewn,
There's nothing "locking" about the bearing sleeve coupling. The top plate comes on and off just as it would with a free floating bearing. It's slips in and out of that 3/4 Baltic ply layer just a bit more snugly.
- Mario |
GP49,
Better late... I had Ed Crockett do a tire rebuild on my plastic idler from a Bogen-61 last year. Couldn't be happier. Firm, yet supple and at a very reasonable price. If you do decide to send it off to him, be sure to include as much of the old tire as you can so that he can hone the "V" for a matched profile.
- Mario |
Hi Kravi4ka,
Not sure whether your question got answered. Make the armboard 1/8" to 3/16" thinner than your plinths top layer.
This will be about 3 - 5 mm. 5/8th should be fine if you'll be attaching the armboard directly to the second layer.
- Mario |
Wow Mosin! That’s the absolute tops of any homebrew turntable I’ve ever seen anywhere. And you accomplished this without a basement full of Chinese illegals? Absolutely stunning production quality (and I mean high-end production quality) in this build!
Thanks for sharing this Mosin, and more importantly, thanks for sucking it in and turning the corner with this courageous give-back.
One question…. what is that IC next to the power connect?
All best,
Mario
|
Hi Mike!
Glad to see you back. Missed your irreve"rant" ways on many a forum over the last few months. Whatcha been up to? Any progress on Peter's designed top plate?
Mine is still mired in the design application phase -probably more dreaming than practical application (not having the tools to match my visions).
Anyway, great to hear from you!
- Mario |
Hi Mosin,
It would seem that there is little to be gained by splitting semantic hairs over the meaning of “discovered” – especially since you seem to be carrying some pain and anger over this for quite some time. Had Jean written “I discovered what others had suggested to be a vast improvement” or more simply, “I discovered for myself” would he have been off the hook? But in the end, he did not write those words and you took it as slight and a “grab”.
But the word “discovered” will always be tinged with chauvinism, whether one says that Newton discovered gravity, or Columbus discovered America, or I discovered that I was too short of funds to buy my wife flowers the other day. Who discovered “direct coupling” and why does that matter?
Somehow I don’t come away from reading Jean’s posts with a sense that there’s something sinister or duplicitous going on with him. Truth be told, Mosin, in the wake of you and others showing up here – after a long absence – not to post anything positive – but to attack – that strikes me as sinister.
Civility is certainly nice when you can get it, but as I cautioned Jean many moons ago placing expectations on how others act can be a losing proposition. By the same token, expecting acknowledgement or desserts over perceived intellectual property is also a losing proposition. This is a public forum on the World-Wide-Web. What’s out is out.
If you’ve got something to share, do so with no strings attached. Otherwise, you’d do well to keep it to yourself.
All best,
Mario |
Your right Paul,
A public forum is not the place to air this laundry out.
All best,
Mario |
In the vein of taking a Lenco to its limits, while still holding on to its Swiss engineering essence (who am I to attempt an improvement on this great drivetrain), I’ve finally finished up on the Interstate l-75.
It incorporates high degrees idependant isolation/coupling to each system component in drawing off unwanted transmissions into the plinth. The tightrope of isolation versus coupling seems to have been successfully traversed because this is one, dead silent Lenco that provides an extremely high degree of intimate music retrieval and engagement. A lot of variables came into play all at once with this Lenco build, so it is near impossible to tell what effects each has on its playing success. Nevertheless, two stand out as paramount in importance – Jean Nantais’ tutelage in careful maintenance and resurrection of Lenco components to be sunk into the sandwich recipe of a solid mass constrained plinth. And Peter Rheinder’s custom designed topplate that allowed the sinking into that plinth to be a foolproof proposition.
At some point, I’ll try and tidy up my System room and update it with pictures. In the meantime, anyone who is interested can see the finished Interstate here:
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1870
And the making of it here:
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1517
All best,
Mario |
Hi Jean,
Glad to see you've got bubbling pots on all burners. I just got hold of a NOS Ortofon FF15E MarkII. What's the difference between mine and your M15E Super Mark II?
All best,
Mario |
Ah well,
Can't have too many Carts. I did, however, finally pick up the right Pickering V-15 (625e) with new stylus that you mentioned on the old thread. While I enjoy the "tubey" sound, it's such light tracker (.75 - 1.4 grams) that I'll have to dedicate some future turntable project with maybe a wall mount for it.
Now that V15-Vxmr is, in fact, my fave. Purchased it new at list back when the window was just beginning to close on it at Shure. It's does the full MM extravaganza without calling attention to itself - "The Big Natural in Neutral".
This in opposition to the Pickering V-15 which does call attention to itself, albiet in an folksy, vintage type sound. Recently pulled the Vxmr out of circulation (it's about at half-life) to rotate in a few other carts.
When the Vxmr stylus has worn itself out, my plan is to have it retipped - there are some reasonably priced retip services across the Atlantic in the mother country.
Looking ahead to future idler builds, I've got two Lencos and two Metzner Starlights that that have been calling to me like hungry children. I'll probably keep it feasible and plan to do one of each this building season.
Both Metzners suffer from a material design flaw. Because of the extreme torque at the spindles, the platter sleeves have "egged out" and exhibit unacceptable platter wobble. The sleeves were of an alloy not quite up to the task over the long haul. You may remember that the Metzners have a unique drive system - no bearing per se - but direct spindle drive with a scored all metal idler, driving a rubber puck in metal frame and up to the 6 lb. platter spinning in true 16-80 rpm variable speed. The 50s era Japanese motors (made from US military surplus steel - thanks to the Marshall plan, no doubt) are 4-pole inductors that appear to be bigger cranks than the Lenco motor, but just as quite, if not more so. So there's potential... An Auto Speed shop for high performance grade valve sleeves, custom machined and pressed into the Metzner platters is the next step.
Enjoy your idleness!
- Mario |
Hi All,
Happy Anniversary! Our four-year undergraduate program is completed. On to mastering the audio universe! With a bulk degausser in one hand and a Lenco in the other, nothing can stop us! Seem like ions ago since Jean cast his net and snagged so many of us into this blast. It’s been fun and continues to be so whether publicly extolling or privately building – seeking and questioning.
The ‘table playing field has changed in four years. If not in an outright ground swell of idler support, then belated, grudging acknowledgement and respect for a system that was all to quickly passed by. It seems that idler hands were not the work of the Devil, afterall.
Sail on.
- Mario |
Hi Everyone,
Well it certainly seems like old times a'brewin here.
Mr. JStark wrote:
"I do apologize if some of you find it not on topic.
just sharing some ideas that worked for me. Not a Lenco project but some techniques will be implemented in that project as well."
No apologies needed at all on this. Your experiences in other facets of plinth building or other "Non-Lenco" areas are quite welcome.
Not far back in the posting, Jean and I were discussing the merits of servo-controlled Direct Drives. So go for it, by all means.
After reading a good bit about the slate upsurge here and elsewhere, I'm certainly rethinking my intended use of a doctored marble surround in a traditional Baltic ply/mdpb plinth. The reclaimed marble, which I have tons of, was going to get internal bore-outs with epoxy fills before fitment to a reduced size traditional plinth. However these heroics with unknown prospects in reducing marble's resonant ringing properties might not be worth the effort.
Maybe a good compromise in choosing a slate quarry would be something along a "Baltic" pedigree. :)
Oh Lew, I believe Jean's use of use of acrylic is not aboard any of his plinths, but is used in conjunction with marble as an "underfoot" base.
Sail on, guys!
- Mario |
Well Mosin,
Seems that a simul-post with Jean has left my caution moot. Seem's Jean is going to rock on, as well.
All best,
Mario |
The reveal at last.
No response needed.
You're your own undoing in this one, Mosin.
- Mario |
Mosin,
It would seem that expansiveness on the DIY level also would lend to a give-and-take sharing of information. Instead we have two posts from you which “take on” Jean "line by line" as you say. The palpable tenor of which is clearly not to share and gain, but to imperiously “red pencil” someone who you’re out for.
How long are you going to carry this Mosin? Is it worth the load?
- Mario |
