I just noticed a pair for sale on Audiogon for a very reasonable price.
ozzy
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Well I have probably 150-175 hours on my speakers and they continue to improve.
There is an "aliveness" that is hard to describe, more so than any other speaker I have heard.
ozzy
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Parkhurst,
Thank you for your question.
The Carver ALS has been an adventure. Between ordering, shipping problems, lack of sub etc. Then there is the speaker placement requirements. I wasn't prepared to be moving the speakers so much. (I have a rotator cuff injury).
My previous DIY speakers and external crossover are really very good and I am still using them with my home theater equipment and I would not hesitate to put them in as full time if needed. They far exceed anything I listened to prior to the Carvers.
Yes, it all seems to be worth it, the sound quality today is very pleasing.
The couple things that I'm not sure of is where to place the Synergistic HFT's that I used with the other speakers and if side wall room treatment is still needed.
ozzy
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Ozzy,
I thought you or anybody with the A L S dialed in would be pleased. Glad to hear of the progress, has the adventure been worth it knowing your previous setup was beyond solid?
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Hi Ozzy,
As I mentioned in one of my posts yesterday I haven't looked inside my unit in a long time, and when I did I wasn't paying much attention to the jumpers. But I assume that my HDP-5 has 8 jumpers, since with its three left & right output channels (one more left & right pair than your Premate provides) + left & right analog inputs it presumably requires all 8 of them.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Al,
Do you have 8 jumpers?
ozzy
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I'm not surprised, Ozzy, even though you weren't the original purchaser. Alan Langford at DEQX has been very responsive and helpful to me on several occasions.
Best regards,
-- Al
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BTW, DEQX is sending me some more jumpers.
ozzy
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Meeting Bob in person was the highlight of last years RMAF for me. |
dracule1,
Bob was a big reason I went with the amps and speakers. Creative genius.
ozzy
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Ozzy, your experience with the Carver amp reminds me of mine with my Carver Cherry 180 amp. I bought it around 9 years ago. I bought a new custom speaker and started to drive it with the Carver. However, the bass sounded weak and the bias meter would go back and forth full sweep like crazy with bass transients. I thought there was something wrong with the amp. I called Bob, and he told me unequivocally it’s not the amp but the speakers. Well, he was right. The speaker designer reversed the mid/bass crossover with the tweeter section. I’ve also called him with other issues and he always came up with an answer to fix it. He’s like no other designer I know. |
almarg,
Inside my DEQX Premate unit the jumpers are labeled as; R bass, L bass, R mid, L mid, R high, L high.
On the back of the unit the outputs are labeled as you say which also corresponds to the DEQX home screen.
Confusing? So is the manual...
All I can say is with the output jumpers on all 3 output sections the balanced out plays dead quite. Removing the high jumpers introduces very high hiss with the balanced out.
ozzy
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@ozzy
I just noticed that on the rear panel of the Premate the "main" outputs are also identified as L2/R2, and the "sub" outputs as L1/R1. And the jumper block information on page 166 of the manual of course uses L and R designations, rather than bass, mids, and highs.
So when you referred to the jumpers initially being on the mids and bass, are you sure that they were on L1/R1 and L2/R2, as opposed to L3/R3 and L2/R2?
Best regards,
-- Al
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almarg,
Thanks but no the high- output needs the jumpers in place. Without them the DEQX unit will output considerable hiss through the balanced outputs. But, perhaps the mid jumpers are not needed with my model.
I sent a email to DEQX on Sunday asking for advise. I hope they answer.
ozzy
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@ozzy Hi Ozzy, It’s been a long time since I looked inside my unit, and I didn’t pay much attention to the jumpers when I did so. But based on what the manual says, yes, I would assume it has 8 jumpers. I do recall that the circuit board in mine says HDP-4, as you found also. (Mine has a separate circuit board in addition, which provides the processing for the HDP-5’s touchscreen, its ethernet interface, and perhaps some other functions that are not included in the Premate). The instructions shows all 6 on the outputs. But, it also shows using 2 on the RCA input section. I have a total of 6 of the jumpers to use.
I’m looking at the latest version of the manual ("Rev 1, applies to DEQX-Cal version 3.02"). Since that manual applies to your Premate as well as to my HDP-5 and to other models, and the same board is used in both of our units, but the Premate provides two stereo pairs of outputs while the HDP-5 provides three, it seems evident that only 4 of the 6 output jumpers shown in the manual are necessary for the Premate. And therefore perhaps only those 4 (plus the two on the inputs) were provided initially. The jumpers were originally only on the mid and bass outputs. There was none on the high outputs and 2 were used on the RCA input section. Since the two sets of outputs on your unit are identified on the rear panel as being for mains and subs, I would have thought that the way you originally found the jumpers to have been placed (mid and bass, plus two for the RCA analog inputs) would have been correct. So as I said in my previous post I’m puzzled. It sounds like the way you found all of the jumpers initially was exactly where I would have expected them to be in the Premate. Best regards, -- Al |
almarg,
Thank you for your comments.
So are you saying you have 8 jumpers?
The circuit board on my Premate identifies it as a HDP-4.
And there is 6 jumpers. 2 each for the high, mid, and bass. The jumpers were originally only on the mid and bass outputs. There was none on the high outputs and 2 were used on the RCA input section.
Perhaps the 2 on the mid is not supposed to be used on the Premate version but I don’t really know.
The instructions shows all 6 on the outputs. But, it also shows using 2 on the RCA input section. I have a total of 6 of the jumpers to use.
On the RCA input section I now have nothing there, but I am only using balanced inputs.
ozzy
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Kudos, Ozzy, for resolving this very non-obvious problem. Great news, as others have said! Instead of being 6 installed in the output jumper spaces there were only 4 and the other 2 were put in the RCA input section. Leaving the output without 2 key jumpers. I will add that I bought this unit used from the Music Room. The previous owner must have moved the jumpers. I’m a little puzzled by this, as I believe your Premate has only four outputs (each in both balanced and unbalanced form), rather than the six that for example are provided in my DEQX HDP-5. And it appears that there **should** be two jumpers on the RCA input section (which adjust the input sensitivity over a fairly small range of 2.3 db). So perhaps the presence of only four jumpers on the output section was correct, but two of them had been placed on jumper blocks that are not used by the Premate. In any event, as you have seen the output jumpers provide adjustment over a range of 12.5 db, which of course is substantial. And who knows what the consequences would be of simply having no jumpers on two jumper blocks that are in fact used in this design. Finally, FWIW, I purchased my HDP-5 new and I’ve never changed the jumper settings from their default positions. Those result in max gain on the analog inputs (which I use for LP, in addition to using the digital inputs for other sources), and 4.9 db less than max on the analog outputs, which drive my VAC power amp and (in bypass mode) my Stax headphone amp. Great work, and enjoy! Best regards, -- Al |
david_ten,
Thanks.
Yeah, while I was going crazy, Bob was always available. He also was quite stumped by the problem.
In a few days I will reintroduce the SR blue fuses to the amps.
I also had 5 SR HFT's on each of my DIY speakers. With the Carvers, I'm not sure where to start. I called Synergistic and they said "when I find proper placements to let them know!"
Anyone have any suggestions?
ozzy
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@ozzy Very cool that you were able to diagnose and fix the issue. You had been 'quiet' so I wondered if they weren't working out the way you expected or had hoped for. Terrific hearing you are happy with both the Carver ALS speakers as well as Carver's amps!
It's also reassuring to hear that Carver will stand by their components. Nice!!! |
stereo5, koestner,
Thank you.
Sometimes the obvious is not always the best path to follow.
ozzy
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Ozzy,
Great job on the DEQX investigation! Since your past speakers were of higher efficiency others might have just settled that the Carvers need too much power, and sent them back. Smart move on the fuses as well. Complicated setups take time to optimize, and your knowledge/familiarity with you system is essential. I'll bet I can almost hear it from Florida now.
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@Ozzy...……………………..
Geez, I was afraid they were going to go back. Who would have thought? Glad you got it sorted out and happy you are starting to enjoy them. It will only get better now.
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Latest Update on the Carver ALS Speakers. I now have about 100 hours of playing time on the Carver ALS speakers. To my displeasure they initially exhibited upper treble brightness and a low output level. The upper treble I thought would clear up with more break in time. But the low output concerned me. I tried everything including moving these tall heavy monsters back and forth in the room for optimum room placement. I had to crank the Ravens nearly to the max to get anything close to my usual high-level setting that I sometimes used with my previous DIY speaker. And, the Carver amp meter was pegging and it blew 4 fuses! (Luckily, I had the forethought to remove my SR blue fuses until everything settles). I thought to myself surely these speakers could not be this inefficient! I was very disappointed. But, Bob Carver said that he would refund my money if I was not satisfied. So that was reassuring. I wanted to give them a fair shot,these speakers have been demonstrated many times in large rooms with 30-60 people and the 2015 Audiophile review talks about running these speakers with Carver’s 20-watt tube amps, then why was I getting such a low output with an amp that can output 350 watts? Were they defective? It drove me crazy… Well, I had an epiphany yesterday morning and remembered that the DEQX manual said something about internal jumpers to increase/decrease the output. So, I took the DEQX apart thinking that a change in the jumper settings may increase the output. Once inside I discovered that the DEQX preamp had some internal output jumpers that were in the wrong place! Instead of being 6 installed in the output jumper spaces there were only 4 and the other 2 were put in the RCA input section. Leaving the output without 2 key jumpers. I will add that I bought this unit used from the Music Room. The previous owner must have moved the jumpers. It turns out this is also why I had hiss with the Carver amps when I initially turned them on using the balanced outputs from the DEQX with my previous DIY speakers. I thought the hiss was because the Carver amps were not a true balanced design. Using the single ended (RCA) DEQX outputs to the Carver Amps removed the hiss and I thought solved the problem, but I really didn’t understand why. Now I do, there were jumpers missing in the DEQX output section! Funny though, the DEQX jumper situation didn’t really surface until I got the Carver speakers. So full circle as the saga goes and once the jumpers were installed in the appropriate positions everything that once sounded like crap now became interesting, exciting and emotional! I am now very pleased with the sound of the Carver speakers. Whew! ozzy
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Cool. By all accounts you bought some great speakers. Keep the faith -- millennials be damned.
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soix,
Thanks for your comments. Each speaker has 13 tweeters, one supertweeter and 18 midwoofers. So there is a lot of piston area to break in.
Each day after I have run the Purist break in disc for hours I find that the speakers are getting better and better. The tweeters still seem a little hot but much less than the day before etc. But, I have the tweeter, midrange and bass controls set for maximum during the break in process.
ozzy
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IME, 25 year olds barely know where their wieners are much less anything else. My speakers are older than him, and they sounded like crap when I first got them to the point that I almost returned them. My speakers are 2-way towers and took about 400 hours to settle in and over 100 hours before I could even begin to enjoy listening to them. How many drivers do your speakers have??? Give it some time Bro.
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dracule1,
I agree.
I was surprised by the Carver employee taking such a hard line on the subject. Even Bob does not believe wire or caps break in but he feels speakers do.
But I sure do...
ozzy
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Unfortunately, engineers, especially the ones who graduated just from college, only believe in what they can measure on the scope. Break in as far as speakers are concerned is real, just like an old worn leather shoe feels much more comfortable than than a new one. The suspension of the the speaker driver including the surround and spider need to loosen up. Almost all speakers I've ever owned in the past 30+ years showed a dramatic improvement in sound after break in period. |
Thank you david_ten
koestner,
I totally agree with you.
ozzy
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I think speaker break-in happens at 2 places. First the caps need some time to hit peak efficiency, and the other thing is the driver surrounds need to flex more to loosen up. With all those drivers involved I would think that is an important thing to consider.
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Patience is only necessary when there are witnesses |
Congratulations @ozzy Patience will reward. : ) |
Thank you guys for the break in time information.
I have always believed in break in time being so important. I have found that to be true with cables and electronics.
Jordon from Carver said that break in is a myth and does not apply to the Carver speakers. And he said that he has tested many items and has not found any evidence that break in occurs. He said we eventually get used to the sound, our brains break in to the new sound.
But he is only 25 years old and in my opinion is spreading bad outdated information.
Just because we can’t measure breakin doesn’t mean it occurs. Perhaps we don’t have equipment that can measure it, but our ears and brains can detect it. I trust more in the opinions of us old (around the block a few times) audio gurus than the flat earth group.
And... the speakers are improving with more hours on them.
ozzy
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Ozzy, the ALS does not sound good out of the box. You may even think there’s something wrong with the speakers. The sound will be too diffuse and the instruments won’t sound correct. It’ll almost sound like a defective Bose 901 at first. I notice improvement after 20 hours of continuous play with dynamic music. It will continue to improve to the 100 hour mark and will start leveling off. I wouldn’t consider them broken in until you hit 150 hrs.
When fully broken in, You’ll need to fine tune with the high freq and bass controls as their level is dependent on your room and electronics. The midrange control to me is not helpful. I have it dialed to 0. |
Probably a good 200 + hours I would imagine.........enjoy.....
Cheers...... |
musicmann1,
Out of the box they did not sound too good. The treble was peaked and the mid/bass sounded kind of hollow.
I now have about 30 hours of playing time on them and they have improved sonically.
So, I'm thinking with all the drivers, caps wire etc. they will need about 100+ hours of playing time to really evaluate.
ozzy
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How are the ALS sounding....or not sounding.....🙂 |
Ozzy, I personally would not use the DEQX preamp built in crossover. I'm a minimalist at heart and don't like what the DEQX does. I would connect your JLA sub amp to the the Raven amp via the high level connection using speaker wire (assuming the JLA sub accepts high level input, if not use the low level connection RCA/XLR). It is considered by many to be the best way to integrate subwoofer to the main speaker. I would go through the built in calibration of the JLA sub amp and then crossover at around 70 Hz as a start. Then you'll need to play with the phase (start at 0) and crossover freq to get the most integrated and quickest bass response from the subs. It's a lot of work. If you don't have an SPL meter and want to do it by ear, get a nice head phone with a flat freq response (Senheiser etc). Head phones are immune to room induced bass resonances. Listen to a piece of music with a lot of acoustic bass instruments. Compare the same music to what you hear through the head phone and through your speakers and get the speakers sounding as close to possible to the headphone bass.
Hope this helps. |
Stereo5, dracule1,
Thank you I'll use the 8 ohm tap.
I do notice that the meter on the Raven 350 really bounces a lot now.
Since I don't have the Carver Rosa subs and I am using (2) JL Audio F-113's subs (with my DEQX Preamp with its built in electronic crossover) any suggestion as to the crossover points?
ozzy
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Ozzy, the ALS is nominally 8 ohm so the 8 ohm tap is the right choice. Bob confirmed this with me. If you go with 4 ohm, it would probably will not sound as open or transparent. But it won't hurt the amp or speakers if you try. In most cases the higher tap will sound better if you can get away with it, unless you have a 1 ohm speaker like the Apogee Scintilla. Then you'd need the 1 ohm tap on your amp. |
Congratulations Ozzy. Usually from the 4 ohm taps, you will get less volume level so you may need to goose the volume control higher. I tried the 4 and 8 ohm taps on my McIntosh amp and after living with both for a month, went back to 8 ohms as it sounded a little more dynamic to me and the bass was definitely deeper.. |
dracule1,
Thanks for the pointers.
I am not sure if I use the 8 or 4ohm tap. Right now I have it on the 8ohm.
What can I expect if I try the 4ohm tap?
ozzy
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The lady at the Detroit R&L terminal was EXTREMLY RUDE! I filed a complaint about her attitude. There is no reason for that... ok, enough said about that.
But, I did receive the speakers today! ...Yippe- Kiyaa!
They were not difficult to set up and also not as tall as I thought they would be. So no problem at all with my 92" ceilings.
But I can tell that I need to play around with placement and it’s various settings. I am also surprised how much bass the speakers have by themselves. Almost no need for subwoofers. I’ll need to calibrate my subs better.
Also, I’m assuming that the speakers will need about a month of breakin.
ozzy
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Sorry,
But it's not just R&L. In my story I don't remember the trucking company, but it was clear they won't send the truck to my house unless there is other stuff in my area to be delivered. This isn't UPS or FedEx where there is always lots of stuff to be delivered in your area every day. I think it sucks, but the dispatcher would be fired if they went back and forth with each delivery everyday.
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Yikes, wait.So if business is slow in your area potentially 2 weeks from now you could still be looking for delivery? At what point do they feel the need to do their job?
Let me see....R&L never use, got it thanks.
LP |
Ozzy, your room dimensions are similar to mine, but I have 10 foot ceiling. However, Bob designed the ALS to work with 8 foot ceiling so that it may be of benefit to you. Good to see you have the four corners of the room treated. I've found placing absorption panels in front of and slightly behind the speakers along the side walls (to absorb some of the sound from the side firing drivers) to be beneficial reducing some of the huge amount of spacial cues these speakers can generate. It focuses and gives more solidity to the images, especially vocals. Also having absorption panel in the center of your front wall behind the speakers will improve image focus and solidity. But you'll have to experiment. My room is a combination of aborption and diffusion panels. Also placing the speakers out into the room as much as you can, really helps the sound stage. I have mine out about 10 feet into the room and 3 feet away from the side walls.
Obviously, the Ravens are a great match for the ALS. |
koestner,
Thanks I’m sure your right, saving money over customer service. Poor combo.
I just hate all the lying. Depending upon who you talk to the story changes. The tracking info on their site no longer shows any movement since last Friday stating they arrived at the destination terminal. Today, I was told the tracking is incorrect and that they just received them at the destination terminal today. (Even though their tracking site shows received at destination site last Friday)
I just hope they haven’t been damaged and they are trying to deceive me.
So, I don’t really know where they are or when I will receive them. All I know is if I have a choice in the future I will not use R&L carriers.
ozzy
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Ozzy,
Your speakers are probably sitting at the nearest R&L place. They are waiting for other things to be delivered near you. I had this happen many years ago. I ordered two Larger VMPS subs and they sat there 15 miles from my home. The carrier told me they didn't know when they would get them to me. I asked if I could pick them up and they were very happy to have that happen. A friend and I got them in a truck the next day. Now I'm not saying you should go get them, but find out where they are. Chances are they are close.
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dracule1,
I will be using the new Carver Raven 350 amps. My room is 17x25 with nearly 8 foot high ceilings. I have right now ASC tubes traps in the corners and ASC panels on the walls. I'm also using the Synergistic Research HFT's.
Any special advise about speaker placement would be appreciated.
ozzy
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Ozzy I've been living with the ALS for 9 months now. It's better than my $40k Raidho speakers. However, speaker placement and room acoustics in addition to amplification plays a critical role in how they sound. Most past shows demonstrating these speakers were got mixed reviews but the last AXPONA show they sounded decent. Imho, I've haven't heard a better overall speaker regardless of price. |
