@mikelavigne OTOH maybe you need to find yourself better digital playback if you are open minded enough to consider it?
You raise a good point, but digital has a long way to go before it can fully integrate into traditional systems with both a recording (archiving) and playback (streaming) function in one product that can stand alone or optionally interface to a PC. The variants of DSD have the performance potential, but have not reached a level of consumer-friendliness to go mainstream. That’s not to say that the mainstream even cares, but the products need to be more operator-friendly from an interface and functionality perspective. |
@bsmg
There are bad records and bad CD's,
Yes, there are bad records, but it’s not the medium that’s bad, it’s the production. |
@dill Do we really need another thread like this? There are 2 sides to everything. Just like an LP record. Oh well, there’s another thing that Vinyl does better. :-) |
@lalitk Your shortsightedness and ignorance is clearly evident when you say, ..... BTW.... until you do you would never know or understand how far digital streaming has come. I may be impatient, but not shortsighted. I’ve been watching for something so obvious it’s painful that the industry hasn’t delivered on yet: an unencumbered way to take one’s existing (and possibly massive) media collection of all kinds (LPs, CDs, SACDs, tapes...) and archive it to 2xDSD or 4xDSD on a media server running on a PC or Mac or NAS elsewhere in the home. This is simply not possible without dragging in a PC and connecting up USB cables and an ADC in addition to the DAC / network streaming device required to listen to it. Internet radio and Roon are not enough. Give me the ease of use of a tape deck, albeit with the ability to title each track and group into albums. I don’t think that exists, or maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places. |
@kalali
A $5,000 vinyl rig will sound better than a $500 CD player. Try a $5,000 CD player and report back.
Wow, now that’s a good example of fact-based thinking 🤔 NOT! As in “he said he paid 50% more than I did for exactly the same thing”, so one is a fool and one is a wiseman. Price has little correlation on sound quality after a threshold of VALUE rpt VALUE is attained. By the way, anyone who calls a high end audio system a “rig” is pretty out of touch.
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Not as much as you might think. Vinyl will eventually lose sound quality after dozens of plays. In the hands of a person who cleans their records, handles them properly, cleans their stylus and uses a line contact or Shibata stylus profile, vinyl lasts a hundred or more plays.
Having said that, I do plan to archive my collection to 4xDSD as soon as a reasonable solution becomes available. |
@chakster The goal of analog is ANALOG, not a digital converted to analog. Get youself some proper original records from the 70’s to make sure you’re listening to the state of the art analog, not a digitally remastered reissue or new music recorded digitally. Original pressing from analog master tape is where the vinyl is better than CD of the same music recorded later from digital source. Also the phono cartridge is the key to analog.
Totally agree with you Chakster. The purity of the analog mixing, production and mastering process works best with analog playback. Putting digital in any of these stages introduces unnecessary a/d and d/a conversions and associated elements of distortion. |
@itsjustme
Could you start with the entire system chain so we know what you were hearing, and the material, so we know the mastering?
It’s pretty straight-forward. I listen to material recorded to LPs in the 60’s and 70’s on a completely analog (except for CD player) system. My turntable is a fully restored high-end vintage Technics SL-1700mk2 with Audio-Technica VM540ML cartridge playing through a modified NAD PP2 (external regulated power supply, Burson V6 Classic discrete op-amp and XLR connectors with Belden 1696A shielded single pair cable to the tonearm). To replicate this much with off the shelf gear, you’d have to spend the better part of $6,000. |
@ct0517 rap sucks. You can’t be serious about sound quality if you are planning to listen to that tripe. As for your other hyperbole, just try listening to music instead of rap and you’ll appreciate the benefits of analog, and might just admit how much better Vinyl is. |
@audioman58, were you trying to make a point in your post? If so, it was lost in the gibberish and half-wit suggestive innuendo. By the way, saying that vinyl is 12-bit is insane. You do know that it’s analog don’t you? |
@audiolouis, are you referring to phase and not polarity? |
@audioman58 yes sometimes the truth can be painful.
go to Any quality store and you will see, maybe for the first time
your $500 CD player is as basic as it gets You get what you pay for !! You should not be so easily shaken. A CD player can be had for as little as $100 if your standards aren’t too high. A $500 CD player really doesn’t have much better sound quality, and neither does a $1500 or $3000 CD Player. All you get for that exorbitant price is a little better build quality. As others said, digital is only an imitation, analog is the real and lasting thing. |
@khughes In the end, though, when *you* think the vinyl kills the CD and I think the reverse, in the same listening session, *neither* of us is wrong. Get over it. Really? “Get over it”? Really? Now isnt isn’t that a conflicting picture you paint of yourself against the opinions of others? If you truly believed what you say, you’d not be threatened by this thread. |
@cakyol said: After about late 1990's to 2000's, most vinyl music is first recorded digitally in the studio and then pressed onto the vinyl. There is HARDLY any direct analog recordings any more.
So, everyone who THINKS that they are listening to analog on vinyl, wake up and come to the 21st century..... For the most part, there haven’t been many great albums since the 70’s. Did you consider that before you ignorantly accused people who like vinyl of being ignorant of the recording / mixing / mastering processes used in different eras? If you feel so threatened by this discussion, why not leave? Otherwise, get a grip on your outbursts. Nobody has time for them. |
@cal18, do you do real DeeJaying or rap-“dj”ing? I strongly doubt any real deejays use vinyl anymore, they have not for 30 years. rap “dj”s only use one record on each turntable, which is just for time code to drive serato to play out digital rap files. Those clowns don’t care about or need sound quality anyways. |
So Orpheus, you’re saying that CD is good for lazy people who don’t want to learn how to do new things? You’re probably right. Most people are simpletons who don’t know much of anything and have even worse judgement. Thanks for the compliment! |
@prof (And if that is a refrain of the tired old "analog captures the sound continuously, digital chops it up and misses parts" then that’s just a myth and a misunderstanding). You know that digital does not record the entire analog waveform right? It’s called “sampling” for a reason, that it takes a representative sample of the original analog signal, and then on playback, it reconstructs a likeness of the original analog waveform, using the recorded samples, and synthesizing the information between the samples. The question becomes, after one reviews all of the complicated mathematics: “in practice, does it satisfy my expectations?” For some people, the answer is “yes, and I don’t need to worry about the process” for other people the answer is “yes, and I believe the process is sufficiently capable of reproducing sound quality within the range of tolerances that my ears need”. For still other people, the answer is “no, because I dislike the concept of digitizing an analog signal, no matter how convincing the playback result is”. Finally, there are some who say “I just can’t accept that the sampling process is faithful enough to produce playback that is perfectly the same as the original analog source, and they are therefore predisposed to not want to be satisfied by digital. There are probably as many perspectives as there are hifi enthusiasts. All that matters is that each individual has the freedom to pursue the medium that suits their predisposition. For the record, my predisposition is that digital has a specific time and place, where I do non-critical listening. Those digital formats include CD, satellite radio, podcasts and streaming. One day, I hope to add 4xDSD to that format one day, for archiving my extensive vinyl collection. After I’ve experienced 4xDSD in my application, I’ll evaluate it and I hope, it will fit the bill for my expectations in critical listening. |
@prof Talk of preferences will bring in all sorts of differing opinions, which is fine, but I was responding to the promulgation of incorrect technical claims. You are wrong if you claim that digital reproduces the original analog with 100% accuracy in 100% completeness is every time. |
@chakster , I make a distinction between real deejays, by using the term “deejay” and rap-“dj”s that are often referred to as “djs”. The real deejays are people who play music from media at radio stations and live events without scratching and mixing. They play music, not rap/hip-hop. They aren’t really interested in sound quality as much as getting the music out to the listeners, so in that they are similar. Part of the sub-culture of rap-“dj”s is about modifying the original sound, and while they use SL-1200mk2 turntables most often, they aren’t being used to transcribe anything but time code discs to drive serato-based systems to play out highly compressed semi-original content. It’s as far apart from music as you can get. And in the process, these ham-handed orangutans destroy millions of SL-1200mk2 turntables every year.
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@rauliruegas , you are incomprehensible as usual.
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Uuugggghhhhh!!!!! This isn’t a debate on perception, it’s a debate on the medium and associated technologies. C’mon people, it’s not about WHO is right or wrong. |
Fleabay also protects its “preferred” sellers from negative feedback, even when warranted. There’s really no recourse to punish a bad fleabay seller once they’ve reached a certain status with them, so PayPal is your best friend. |
This “polarity” nonsense is bull. Either the two channels are in phase with each other or they’re not. Simple as that. |
@krell_fanVinyl will always sound better than red book simply because it is pure analog without conversion from analog to digital and back. |
@rauliruegas
But at the end we are talking of digital against LP/analog alternatives. Remember too that today CDP comes with 32/384 DACs or at least 24/192 and this is a characteristic that makes everything different when you listen to any CD.
CD is CD. What you put in is what you get out. If you are trying to compare another format to vinyl, that’s a different discussion.
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@rauliruegas Do it a favor and don't be foolished by vinyl, no way my friend. Today year 2019 digital is way superior to and from here ahead the digital distance between it and vinyl will be wider and wider because analog developments stopped to grow up as technology several years ago and digital is still growing up and even we can think is endless in this trend. You you didn’t get the point. This is a debate on CD vs Vinyl. Not DSD vs Vinyl. CD is a dead media format. Vinyl is still in production and increasing at a compound rate every year. |
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