I actually owned both Dragons MK1 and II.
Physically, the MK2 is bigger and heavier than MK1, due to the increased weight of transfomers. MK2 uses dual power transformers instead of one in MK1. Also, the Dragon MK2 is much cooler to operate. If you stand close or even 6 feet away from the MK1 amp, you will definitely feel it when it's operating! Mk2 amp is exceptionally quiet to operate and feels cooler.
Sonically, MK2 is way better than MK1. I happened to own latest Franks 300B (before owning Dragons MK1) and this MK2 sounded very identitcal to Franks, back ground noise is so low and black like Franks and you can hear more minute details and nuances. With Dragons, you will not sacrifice any bass weight and impact and dynamics that you come to expect from bigger powerful amp, yet retaining the strength of Franks! Franks might still be the champion, on certain recordings and music...i heard a few tracks on both amps, i can't tell the difference. Again, your mileage may differ with mine, on the type of music and setup...so leave some room for variance.
If your budget permits, go for Dragons MK2. Else, go for MK1 in used market, with new tubes are around $4k before shipping and taxes.
Actually, if you don't listen to large orchestra and music with alot of bass, go for Franks...best buy!
Jimmy |
Hi Ernie,
I think I'm reading that you like the sound of 211 high power tube amp. Yes, i agree with you the sound is 3D, natural and organic. Though XA30.5 has only 30W class A power, i'm surprised that you could hear more bass weight...maybe SS does offer that bass magic! Or maybe listen to the sound and if possible, compare to 'live' music...determine which one (pass Lab or Dragons) is more accurate.
Everyone has different preference. I've owned Coincident products since 2004 and increasingly more and more, after all these years, i think i can safely say, Coincident makes neutral gears (speakers and amps)...i'm sure there are people out there thinks it's "bland" and prefers more coloured sound, perhaps romantic sound.
I still miss the romantic but highly coloured 300B sound...so the Franks though neutral and un-coloured, plays all music accurately. Unlike some romantic 300B tube amps which sounded romantic, hence, suitable for some music only. You can throw all kinds of music at it, and it will reproduce music true to its design. Most 300B SET class A amps or even 211/845 class A are lower power...to make it high power, manufacturer chooses Push Pull DHT design...Coincident has amazingly made it (Dragons MK2) similar to the more accurate Franks, in terms of tonality, PRAT, Bass,dynamics and soundstage. If your source and preamp is up to the task, you can hear more details.
Personally, i like the sound of Franks but prefer the power and bass weight of high power SS amps. If bi-amping is not in your plans and you're not planning on upgrading your cables to get more bass weight (a costly route)...you might want to consider either upgrading your speakers or even add a quality subwoofer like REL, JL Audio or Seaton Subs. I have not heard any of these three subs, but the reason i suggest a subwoofer is, I've tried connecting a HT subwoofer, Energy brand, to my 2-channel music/movie setup, and the bass weight was much better with subwoofer when watching movies. Even when listening to 2-channels music, it did sound better with more bass weight.
There are some audiophiles who uses Dragons MK1 amp as bass amp (in bi-amp setup) only if details and noise level bothers them. Mk2 amp is a huge improvement, imho, so the pricing and performance will more than justify the purchase compare to getting the Franks.
Jimmy |
Hi Ernie,
Back in 2010, after i bought the latest Franks with 100hrs new and before it was fully broken in, i started with tube rolling, it was my first tube amp (i was a SS person all these while). The stock EH300B was acceptable and reliable: it was good in the midrange but both ends were noticeably rolled off..then Sophia Electric Princess which after trying, i thought it to be lacking in bass but highs were very extended and airy, while midrange was a big improvement over EH300B.
I wrote to Israel if i should to try the Western Electric 300B which some says has the best midrange, OR the KR300B (there were others on the internet commented its poor reliability), his recommendation was simply "Shugang Black Treasure". Truly, it was the best among the few that i sampled. Black Treasure beats the Sophia Electric in everyway, especially the bass. If i remembered correctly, the background is even blacker.
However, this was my experience with Franks (i sold the black bottle 300B with the Franks) with 300B as output tubes. Frank (the amp) was honest enough that i could tell the difference between each brand of tube even before the amp was fully broken in. Well, my observation could be biased because the amps and tubes were all new but i could still tell their characteristics even when it was new. I think i had each tube running between 80-150hrs, switching back and forth. After the Franks was fully broken in, it was very open whereby both ends were more extended, soundstage is wider and deeper, and midrange is more transparent. Overall, a fully burn in Franks, would sound neutral, organic and 3D, and very much 'live'. Once i remembered that i was listening to a Jazz FM station through my Vintage Sansui Tuner, the music stopped and like there was air sucked out from the room. I dozed off at my couch and suddenly jumped out of it, thinking someone was at the door. I had goose bumps. LOL. My MK2 Dragons would sound very identical to the Franks though i never got the same goose bumps as i had with the passive preamp/Franks combo.
I am still using EH300B in my MK2 dragons. If i remember correctly, maybe i'm wrong, that Israel said the 300B driver tubes did not bring about a big change if i used the Black Treasure. This was in 2011. If you got a chance to try the Black Bottles in your dragons, please post your experience. Thanks
Jimmy |
Ernie,
I'm using Coincident CPRE and all Coincident cables (Extreme power cords and Extreme Shotgun interconnects & speaker cables). Israel did not publicly mentioned this in his website, but write to him if you're interested. Once you got these cables and pair it with Coincident speakers...you'll not want to remove it. System matching is every important, the cables he designed, sounded best in Coincident's system. Several years ago, as a younger audiophile, i buy & sell, swap cables...i once sold my regular extreme interconnects/speaker cables to another guy who had a passive preamp/VAC power amp. He said Coincident's cables create a heighten sense and does not sound natural. I was still being a SS amp person, and the sound came out to be bass heavy...it was perfect as i was using it as 2-channel music/movie system. Actually, i still do...
You would not believe the outcome of listening to these Shotgun cables system, it's extremely satisfying. Where do i begin?
First, if you're living in New York, Coincident is exhibiting at an Audio Show between April 12-14. They say, picture tells a thousand words...but i say, let music speak for itself. Ask Israel if he's bringing his Shotgun cables.
To demonstrate it's excellency, i used my Onkyo HT receiver connect to my CPRE speakers, using all Coincident cables. I'm using Esoteric X03SE and Magnum Dynalab MD108T tuner...very enjoyable. From the receiver, i had connected an active subwoofer, Energy brand...the result is frequency extension on both ends, and yet tubey warm...couldn't believe it?!
Of course, there was no comparison with Statement Linestage and Dragons Mk2...my Onkyo Receiver was blown away...far far away...it is this good. I mentioned this because i'm a bass freak, like you, bass is paramount to me. Not just bass, but quality and warm/wet bass...i think? My Esoteric X03SE SACD player sounded more weighty in bass and the bass punch is way deeper and fuller. But this comes with a price, big one!
Jimmy |
Thanks Charles, i will likely get one in near future... |
Hi Brownsfan,
Can't believe it's been 2 years...! I'm glad you made the move up to CSL, it's a move i've never look back. The Prometheus Signature is a good passive preamp at its price point because i heard bass layering, very detailed sound and airy, which makes it sound distinctly different from its lower price entry sibling which i also owned before getting this Signature version. I was attracted to passive preamp because it first introduced me to 'purity' and 'natural colour' of sound. The biggest difference Prometheus Signature compared to CSL, is the transparency and weight of sound. CSL is able to bring out clearly more subtle details (whereas with 'Signature', i need to pay close attention ) and bigger sound stage, imaging is more definitive or in position...almost see through, if you will. So, the CSL being an active preamp does have an advantage because it is well designed. Without comparison, it's hard to tell how good CSL is, as a preamp. But i wish it didn't have a shiny SS finish, and better still, if it comes with remote!!
I'm thrilled we cross path again!!
Jimmy |
I've also tried TJ Full Music 300B mesh plate on the Franks, if i remember correctly, it has better body and lower bass than EH300B. But i preferred Sophia Princess to TJ. To me, the finest is Black Treasure 300B.
Jimmy |
Coincident launched new products today, stereo integrated amp with remote: Turbo 845SE and Dynamo 34SE. Anyone keen to try? Please post your review or experience...
Jimmy |
I saw this launch of budget or entry level amps as an answer to the market demand or trend of today and near future of audiophile world...high end ultra expensive setup and big profit margins are the bygone days. The real world today is looking for bargain and value. Many thin margins are better one fat margin that may or may not come. Not to ignore the real competition from "Made in China" made possible by free trade, open market...and internet! Anyone with experience of good chinese amp or setup?
Jimmy |
However, having said, Coincident still is a market leader in Speakers design & manufacture. This is their bread & butter, their know how in speakers design has positioned them well among the tube audiophiles. I thoroughly enjoy my setup, even my Onkyo HT receiver has made proud! So for anyone who starts from scratch, i would strongly advice investing in Coincident Cables and Speakers first, i won't be surprise in future audio shows, Israel will demo his stereo amp with his top-of-line cables and speakers, to proof you don't need to be a millionaire to enjoy good music!
Jimmy |
Of course, LineStage/Dragons will offer you a very powerful sound and bigger sound stage, if you match it with good cables and the right speakers. Strongly encourage to listen to Coincident Speakers and their cables, to find out if that sound is what you like. Even driving or flying to that dealership will be more cost effective and productive than merry go round.
Jimmy |
Good for you, Ernie!
I agree with you, having XLR input into the amp (provided source-to-amp are all balanced circuitry), is the preferred way to go. The weight and transparency increases noticeably. Before making next major change, try to have a few more listening to speakers & cable combinations to determine what you like best.
Personally, and this is just me, depending on the budget, i would go with either:
1. Statement LineStage/Franks with good monitor and subwoofer. This is because Linestage offers you another line out to your subwoofer...and having a good monitor that throws a 3D soundstage and solid imaging, leave the lower bass to a quality subwoofer. The Statement LineStage also offers balanced (XLR) input and output.
OR
2. Get a powerful (tube/SS) integrated amp to drive the speakers of your choice. Personally, i would go with Coincident Extreme Shotguns cables and a Coincident Triumph MK2. Let the integrated amp also drive your JL Audio subwoofer. If the integrated amp has both XLR input (from your source) and XLR output to your subwoofer, then this route might be good. I have good experience with my Onkyo HT receiver using all Coincident cables, particularly Extreme Shotguns.
The best is, if you can audition the setup in a dealershop or bring it home to test it out, if you like it.
The issue with tall full range speakers is the positioning of speakers. Having separate monitors/subwoofer will provide you an easier optimum positioning. Monitor produce a directional sound but subwoofer bass is omnidirectional...makes it slightly tricky with positioning. i.e. while you get good focus and sound stage, it may comes at the compromise of subwoofer positioning. CPRE speakers are the purest transducer i've heard and it's separate monitor/subwoofers provides this advantage. My personal budget is skewing heavily towards cables and speakers. Then, the amp and finally the source...this is just me. I've had Totem Model-1 and Mani-2 Signature in my setup, while having the passive preamp/Franks..and all Coincident regular Extreme cables. The Coincident Triumph MK2 beats both of them flat! In fact, if you want a accurate and detailed midrange, you might want to consider Coincident Super Eclipse MK3 which i also owned...no regrets. But due to its high impedance, it will sound dry with SS amps...no such problems with 300B SET amp! However, it's low frequency only goes down to 28Hz...hey, you have a JL Audio subwoofer? wink-wink.
I think you'll be able to make a good informed decision based on unbiased listening...reviews are only for those who hear it themselves. Let your ears be the judge!
Jimmy |
Coincident LineStage preamp has two RCA outputs and one XLR output, but you can only choose one type of output at any one time. You can listen to a XLR connection source and output via RCA OR XLR connection amp.
My first experience with 300B tube amp, was a Grant Fidelity A-534 10WPC 300B SET driving my Super Eclipse MK3. I was using an Arcam FMJ CD23 cd player as source. The sound was romantic and heavenly...both my friend (who tries to sell me this integrated 300B amp) and myself....after listening for a while, we both fell asleep on my couch! The legendary clas A 300B midrange, changed my experience...this is music, i tell myself!
Back in 2008, i paired my Super Eclipse MK3 with a SS SET integrated amp, Sugden a21a. I think it was 25WPC? It produced a 3D soundstage, organic and nice sound and good punchy bass. But in terms of music, it won't hold a candle to Class A SET 300B tube amp. Price of integrated 300B SET amp is good too (made in china), and if you look out for a Super Eclipse MK3 which has very good detailed midrange for its price...you might get it for less than $2k and no need of speaker stand and still fairly easy to move it around by yourself for positioning.
However, if you want a good monitor speakers, the latest Triumph MK2 is excellent choice. I paired it with my then passive preamp/Franks. However, i did on one occasion listened to the latest Super Victory II...highs were bright or with abit of treble energy compared to my CPRE which is completely natural yet very low noise floor. Do listen to a ribbon tweeter speaker before committing...
That dealer who was playing the Super Victory II speakers was not using Coincident amps and cables.
Jimmy |
Someone on the forum wrote detailed write-up of Zu Druid and Definition variants over the years. Zu is a high efficiency speakers that might pair well with your Dragons. Will be interesting. Hope to hear your experience...
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1360136859
Jimmy |
Israel has a clear objective in designing and marketing his stereo amps: beat the competition and offers entry products as an introduction to their separates.
He said, Turbo 845SE will sound more powerful than Franks but separates (LineStage/Dragons or Franks) still offers much more superior sound (purity and transparency). He made the stereo amps for the space and budget conscious who still demand good quality sound. I'm impressed by build quality of these stereo amps in the pictures.
He has a clearly focused group of customers he's going after...serious audiophiles who are growing.
Jimmy |
Ernie,
I'm surprised the Dragons/Zu Druid combo produced an analytical sound. Could it be a synergy issue of your cables/Zu Druid combo?
Coincident gears do have a common characteristic: neutrality (whether speakers or electronics). However, the line of speakers do sound abit different, depending on your liking. My experience with Coincident started in 2003 with owning Triumph Signature bookshelf, then a Conquest in 2004, Triumph Extreme in 2006, Super Eclipse Mk3 in 2008. In 2010, an audiophile friend allowed me to run my then Dragons MK1 (with black faceplate) on his Total Eclipse Mk2. Before my CPRE in 2011, i had the latest Triumph Extreme MK2 in 2010.
None of these speakers i owned were analytical. To my surprise, i didn't like the Super Victory Mk2 after hearing it in a dealer showroom, it could due to the ribbon tweeter but it sounded more airy, extended and detailed than the Triumph Extreme MK2. But the dealer wasn't using coincident cables and amps...so i can't say for sure it was the ribbon tweeter. I didn't read alot of professional reviews on Coincident speakers that their ribbon tweeter sounded bright or analytical..then maybe it's my personal preference. Maybe it's tendency of ribbon tweeter to sound abit shrill?
I personally find Franks to be most easily live with. Dragons are prone to line noise, the brightness of tubes, the heat it generated from the pair of 211 tubes and the size & weight of dragon amps, of course the price difference.
If you ever going to consider used Coincident speakers:
1. Under $3000, you could get yourself a used Total Eclipse. The Dragons/Total Eclipse combo sounded big in scale and ballsier than the polite Franks and even the Cary 805AE. But Dragons sounded darker and prone to line noise, compared to Cary 805AE which is much quieter in background noise.
2. Less than $2000, a used Super Eclipse. I would prefer Super Eclipse for it's midrange liveliness and clarity. I would augment the lower octave with a quality active subwoofer.
3. Lastly, maybe Triumph Extreme MK2 with active subwoofer? The monitors are the champs in imaging.
For most music, Franks should do the job well and if you add the Statement Linestage...Franks will sound more powerful yet retaining the purity and transparency it was known for. Even driving the Total Eclipse which Charles currently owns, is not a problem. Dragons will sound much more powerful than Franks but surprisingly, i felt Franks is not less dynamic than Dragons due to that radio music experience i heard once on the Franks, was unforgettable. So i can't say that the Dragons are more dynamic due to it's higher power. But my thirst for power, eventually lead me to sacrifice purity and transparency for higher power dragons. Now, with Dragons MK2...i don't miss Franks.
Jimmy |
