Does anyone have some opinions about these speakers? Please, do not flame me, but me and my significant other decided we wanted to change my Harbeths out for the Daedalus Audio Muse speakers. At least, thats the thinking, we are looking to get a more full range speaker for around ~10k USD. New or used. But he's zeroed in on the Muse as it suits his (mine too) aesthetic requirements and it does seem to be a more well rounded speaker, with a bigger cabinet that will certainly go lower (we still want to supplement with subs) and quite possibly a more cohesive midrange. Any thoughts?
The only way to really know for sure is try to find a way to hear both speakers. There are members here (maybe they will chime in) who have moved in both directions--from Harbeth to Daedalus, and from Daedalus to Harbeth. I know of one member who moved from Harbeth to Daedalus, and then back to Harbeth.
Though I no longer own them, I am a big fan of Daedalus speakers, which are tonally pure, very musical, and simply beautiful to look at in your listening room on a day-to-day basis. I have no personal experience with Harbeth speakers, but a lot of folks here love them.
I'd suggest speaking directly to Lou Hinckley about which of the 2 Muse options might better suit your listening tastes, room etc.; my personal experience dealing with Lou has been very favorable; he's approachable, patient, non-pushy, and is interested in you getting what works best for you. I have thoroughly enjoyed my Argos V2s. Best of luck whichever decision you make with Daedalus or otherwise
I had Harbeth M-40.1's about 10 years ago. For no good reason, other than audionervosa (foolishness) I sold my 40.1's and replaced them with a dealer demo pair of Daedalus Ulysses (without hearing them). The Daedalus required extensive break-in, but eventually loosened up. The Daedalus Ulysses were good speakers and had furniture quality cabinets, but they just didn't do it for me like the 40.1's. I sold the Daedalus Ulysses after about 18 months, then tried Harbeth SHL5's for a bout a years and now am back with 40.1's, with zero interest in trying anything else.
If you want full bodied / full range, organic and natural sounding speakers, I would try to find a used pair of Harbeth 40.2's. Your 10' x 15' room might be too small for the 40.1's as they are a bit bass heavy.
I think 40.2 would work near field, I already listen near field with my 30.2 there is an extensive post on whatsbestforum of a user who uses 40.2 in a 10x10 area with monoblock benchmark abh2 amps, seems like a good setup. Finding 40.2 used locally is going to be a b*itch tho I think I've only ever seen one for sale. I dunno. What you're saying has me questioning what we are going to do but you havne't really said why they didnt do it for you. What was wrong with them exactly that made you sell them? 18 months is agood while, did you enjoy them at first? what was it about them that made you miss your harbeths so much?
I will take the earlier versions of the Spendor Classic series over Harbeth and many other speakers anytime. I have owned the 3/1, 7/1, and 1/2e (twice) which are currently my reference box speakers. I have heard the 40.1 and I do think they are a fine speaker, just not as neutral as the 1/2e in my opinion.
I sold my first set of 1/2e speakers in favor of he Audiokinesis Jazz Modules, the original version with TAD drivers. Arguably one of the finest speakers I ever heard, until I heard the Quad ESL 57. I realize an ESL is not a good match in a smallish room, but I made mine work in a 20 x 12 room as I do now with modified Acoustat 2 speakers. @d2girls - Audiokinesis speakers are worth looking into. Duke Lejeune posts here and is a great source of information. If you are open to thinking outside the box a bit his speakers could be an option for you.
Why not ask almarg what he thinks? I believe his current speaker of choice is Daedalus. I'm sure Al could give you a very fair assessment of them and what is good to drive them. IMO. Cheers,
The tweeter isn’t aligned with the mid range on the muse! So avoid the Muse but the other designs would be a good choice for a louder speaker with more bass. You must audition though.
If you like the sound of the Harbeths you should try to audition the Devore loudspeakers which are also quite rich and midrange oriented.
D2girls you are in Canada, you should seek out Gershman Acoustics they are also in Canada and they are also very smooth and musical loudspeakers with superb bass response.
Eli Geshman is a very talented designer and they might be able to custom tailor their loudspeakers for your room.
No matter what anyone tells you you need to listen to the speakers in person and better yet try a set in your room. That might be impossible with a carriage manufactuturer like Dadelius.
Lastly you shouldn't beat your selfup about the Harbeths they are very good speakers and they are very stunning and musical, they will be super easy to sell.
The only issue that you haven't addressed is what kind of electronics you are driving the Harbeths with. Perhaps the electronics are not driving the Harbeths well and the resulting bass control is not what is working for you.
The stereo imaging won’t be quite as good as vertically aligned drivers.
If you can’t audition then don’t buy.
Speakers are the biggest variable in an audio system.
Every speaker ever reviewed seems to garner positive reviews. Reviews are often meaningless. Get out there and listen!
Stereophile or Soundstage measurements can quickly tell you which speakers to avoid (most speakers unfortunately have weaknesses) but that won’t help you make that final critical decision on what you like!
Commonly available popular brands - you should audition at least 7 or 8 out of these before plonking down 10K:-
B&W Focal Wilson Revel Kef Dynaudio Martin Logan Monitor Totem (Canadian) Paradigm (Canadian)
Many of these have issues within their extensive line up but most have at least one or two models that hit it out of the park or come very close.
You can’t become an audiophile in 1 year. It takes years of experience and critical listening skills often come only with time (10,000 hour rule applies).
Initially most buyers go for something with sizzle - big bass and emphasized treble (95% of speakers cater to this market) - attention grabbing speakers. Those who make it to a higher discerning level will gravitate towards speakers that sound balanced and totally natural and convey the true dynamics of live music (these speakers do not draw attention to themselves).
I think you you will be surprised at how much you will lose when you move away from Harbeth. It is far from perfect in the bass but Harbeth really do the mid range superbly and that is 80% of your music.
Mr_m and Inna, thanks for the mention. And yes, about 90% of my listening is to classical music, with about 10% being rock and other genres.
@d2girls, I’ve owned my Daedalus Ulysses speakers for about 8 years, and I’ve been sufficiently happy with them that I have no plans to go to anything else in the foreseeable future. During most of that time I’ve driven them with a 300B-based 65 watt per channel VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII tube amplifier. As you saw me mention in the current thread about the Lab12 DAC I recently purchased the solid state Pass XA25 to use with them, which I’ve also been very happy with.
Daedalus speakers are known for their natural sound character. I’d characterize the sound of my Ulysses as being somewhat more rich sounding and full bodied than many other speakers, but at the same time being dynamic, fast, and detailed. And that is accomplished without any hint of excessive brightness, and perhaps even with a bit of rolloff in the treble. Overall, a very nicely balanced speaker for my taste. I have no experience with Harbeth speakers, but based on what I know of them I would expect that a Daedalus speaker would be somewhat less warm sounding, while being a bit "faster" and more dynamic.
The combination Lou’s speakers provide of relatively high efficiency, high power handling capability, and an unusually flat, benign impedance curve makes them suitable for use with just about any amplifier in existence other than the really flea-powered types. The Ulysses are rated at 97.5 db/1W/1m, 2.5 db more than the Muse, and both the VAC and Pass amps I have used with it have no trouble generating the 100 to 105 db peaks that occur at my 12 foot listening distance on a few of my symphonic recordings which have particularly wide dynamic range.
Also, the 95 db rating of the Muse is about 8 db more than the sensitivity Stereophile measured for your Harbeths. Which means that less than 1/4 as much power would be required by the Muse to generate the same volume that would be generated by your Harbeths.
Regarding deep bass extension, based on measurements I’ve performed as well as on listening I’ve found the 28 Hz rating of my Ulysses to be accurate. So I would expect the 35 Hz rating of the Muse to also be accurate.
Shadorne raises a valid concern about the lack of vertical alignment of the drivers in the Muse. If you want to consider that model further I’d suggest that you raise that specific question with Lou. I’m sure he would give you an honest answer. Also, in contrast to the Athena and my Ulysses it appears that the Muse has the front of all of its drivers mounted in the same vertical plane. I suspect that the slight recess of the mid and treble drivers in the Athena and the Ulysses, relative to the positioning of their woofers, provides at least a slight benefit in terms of time coherence.
Best of luck, however you decide to proceed. -- Al
For what it may be worth , I'll add to Almarg's amp association with Daedalus, I have the Argos V2's , model below the Ulysses, I drive them with either Modwright LS100 pre & KWA100SE power amp combo, Line Magnetic 518IA integrated (845 tube based SET, 22 wpc Class A), or Finale Audio 7189 (2) integrated (22 wpc push pull) . I will also agree with Al's assessment on the sound
Former Harbeth owner here (love them) and big time Daedalus fan (just sold my tricked out DA-1.1s and now have Apollos on order). Both speakers just sound "right" to me. I heard the Muse at CAF two years ago--great speaker. Your best guide on the difference between the Muse and Muse Studio (or any other models in your price range) is Lou--he will set you straight. If you are near DC or are planning to go to CAF, I understand that Mark Schneider has a pair of Muse Studios at LTA/Urban HiFi which you can hear for yourself. Daedalus speakers paired with LTA amplification is about as good as it gets. If you like Harbeth's you will undoubtedly like Daedalus. I looked for two years and listened to dozens of speakers before I replaced my Compact 7s with my first pair of Daedalus loudspeakers. I went with Daedalus because they had all the things I loved about the Harbeth's (tonally correct, midrange purity, and a slightly warm presentation) but were quicker, more dynamic, played louder without strain, and could be easily driven by a wider range of amps. Working with Lou is fabulous--great guy, honest, knowledgeable, a musician and music lover. He has really perfected his craft over time and is now at the top of his game. I hope this helps.
As Tacten suggests, Lou is a straight shooter and if he recommends Muse, that would be good enough for me.
My DA-RMAs have been with me for 8 years and I plan being buried in them, if my kids don't want them. Seriously, his speakers sound great, but so do Harbeth to be fair. It may be possible to hear the Muse, Lou has a number of owners around the US, happy to demo theirs.
I need to audition before buying... I live in Canada, Toronto. Anyone got one or know someone or can just introduce me to someone who knows someone? Lol
more cohesive midrange. What I want was a midrange that is even better than the Harbeth one. The step up from KEF ls50 to 30.2 was amazing. To say that the Harbeths are more cohesive is an understatement. I was hoping that any new speaker we acquire is even MORE cohesive, or rather, sounds even better.
Saw your post on Audio Circle, Lou at times responds on ACircle posts. but you might want to go ahead though and directly email or call him about whether or not he has any Canadian customers that might be able to help you out.
Different topic - don't know if you are a Maple Leafs fan or not, but if you are it should be an exciting year. I'll be rooting for them to win the Cup because my beloved NY Rangers are years away from having a shot at doing so.
We've been in communication with Lou already. Honestly all there is left to consider is how they sound. That's why I think an audition is so important.
As for hockey, no, I'm not really a fan of the sport. Sacrilege, I know. I was injured in an accident as a kid and have stayed far away from hockey and ice for the rest of my life. I'm always impressed by the level of technical skill the sport entails, but I've never been able to get excited about the Leafs as they are such a poorly managed and run team compared to anything else the sport has to offer.
@d2girls--absolutely, hear them if you can but if you can't there are a few of us here that have direct, substantial experience with both brands (Harbeth and Daedalus) who can give you a good idea of what to expect should you go from one to the other. Of course, everyone's ears are different, but if you can't get an audition or get to CAF (or better yet, to Ferndale which is in a beautiful part of the PNW near the Canadian border) the views of these folks will have to suffice. You mentioned "cohesiveness" in your last post so let me weigh in on that--one thing I love about the Harbeth sound is the absence of any crossover issues. When I was looking to replace my Compact 7s with something bigger for our new room, several speakers I demoed put me off because I could not get past what I heard as obvious transitions between the drive units. My ears may have been sensitive to this because the Harbeth's are so coherent. When I finally got to hear the Daedalus speakers one (of many things) that immediately impressed was just how coherent they sounded despite being a multi-driver system. Lou has worked with one of the leading designers of complex crossovers in developing his proprietary designs and his crossovers are packed with highly sophisticated, premium parts. This is one of many reasons why his speakers simply sound like live music, as opposed to good (or even great) hifi.
I want to make clear that I don't think the Harbeths are not cohesive FAR from it. We were simply thinking that Daedalus could be another step up, since it is a 3 way. We're trying to find a pair of Daedalus speakers locally that someone might be kind to let us come and take a listen.
Three ways are tougher to design well as inna points out. However a single driver speaker is plagued with fundamental problems. You just can’t get a single diaphragm to produce 20 to 12KHz with anything approaching audiophile quality (flat frequency response, low distortion and high SPL/dynamics). Single drivers are ideal for radios or bass guitar cabinets - where a limited bandwidth is acceptable.
Those look really neat. I'm assuming they play well in small rooms? The room I see on the ad is pretty tiny! However, these are completely out of my budget. Perhaps in a few years I can afford to purchase a 20,000 pair of speakers but as it stands not right now. I do appreciate your opinion that I need to spend a lot more money to get significantly increased performance. Ah well that's life.
I know many of you guys wouldn't approve of this but...
Obviously it's your choice, but inna's youtube assessment of the sound and quality of Daedalus, as well as Modwright & Wywires is way off from the actual in room reality
Well I'm not leaning away from Deadalus because of inna, far from it. I just cant justify spending 8k usd on a speaker I haven't heard or cant hear. 10k usd in the case of the muse studio.
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