TEAC NT-505 meets all your requirements except for HDMI input.
Does this exist? Preamp/Streamer/DAC with MQA, Roon and more
I'm looking for a particular set of features that seem to be very hard to find in a stereo (2.1) product. My budget is preferably around $2,500 but there is some flexibility. Here's what I would like:
Must have
-Preamp
-Network streamer
-DAC
-Roon endpoint
-MQA compatible (not interested in your opinion of MQA)
Want to have
-HDMI inputs/output for video switching only and 2 channel audio (to allow TV sound through stereo)
-Room correction
-Subwoofer management
I recently purchased the newly released NAD C658 which, when adding the optional HDMI module, covers every must have and want to have (Dirac room correction is coming in a later FW update) for a total of $1,800. Perfect! The problem is that so far the thing sounds lousy. I'm trying to let it burn in more and see if Dirac comes and makes it better, but it's not looking good after the first few days. The DAC seems to be the problem. It seems to suffer from audible time smearing and sounds too clinical and harsh so I am suspect about Dirac helping with that.
I've also seen the SimAudio Moon 390 but it's $5,300 and doesn't have room correction or subwoofer management. On the less expensive end, SimAudio also has the Moon Ace for $2,900 which has the same features as the 390, minus the HDMI inputs. I'd use the preouts to my own amp since the Ace is an integrated amp.
Then there is the Aurender A10. It costs even more than the Moon 390 and doesn't have HDMI inputs.
Cambridge Audio has some well regarded streamers but they aren't Roon compatible.
Finally, there is the PS Audio DirectStream and DirectStream Junior. I recently purchased the DSJr since it can be had close to my budget and while it sounds incredible as a streamer and DAC, it's not viable as a preamp. I spoke to PS Audio about this and they recommend using a separate preamp for the DS and especially for the Jr. I can't remember exactly why but they told me the signal to noise ratio when used straight into an amp wasn't ideal. I tested this myself and found that the DSJr sounded better even running through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp than it did straight into my amp (the receiver uses pre-outs to the same amp). I don't want to run a DSJr through a Marantz receiver and if I blow the budget on the DAC, I won't be able to get a capable preamp worthy of mating with it. Plus I'm really trying to get down to fewer boxes.
Are there any other options out there that I'm missing?
Must have
-Preamp
-Network streamer
-DAC
-Roon endpoint
-MQA compatible (not interested in your opinion of MQA)
Want to have
-HDMI inputs/output for video switching only and 2 channel audio (to allow TV sound through stereo)
-Room correction
-Subwoofer management
I recently purchased the newly released NAD C658 which, when adding the optional HDMI module, covers every must have and want to have (Dirac room correction is coming in a later FW update) for a total of $1,800. Perfect! The problem is that so far the thing sounds lousy. I'm trying to let it burn in more and see if Dirac comes and makes it better, but it's not looking good after the first few days. The DAC seems to be the problem. It seems to suffer from audible time smearing and sounds too clinical and harsh so I am suspect about Dirac helping with that.
I've also seen the SimAudio Moon 390 but it's $5,300 and doesn't have room correction or subwoofer management. On the less expensive end, SimAudio also has the Moon Ace for $2,900 which has the same features as the 390, minus the HDMI inputs. I'd use the preouts to my own amp since the Ace is an integrated amp.
Then there is the Aurender A10. It costs even more than the Moon 390 and doesn't have HDMI inputs.
Cambridge Audio has some well regarded streamers but they aren't Roon compatible.
Finally, there is the PS Audio DirectStream and DirectStream Junior. I recently purchased the DSJr since it can be had close to my budget and while it sounds incredible as a streamer and DAC, it's not viable as a preamp. I spoke to PS Audio about this and they recommend using a separate preamp for the DS and especially for the Jr. I can't remember exactly why but they told me the signal to noise ratio when used straight into an amp wasn't ideal. I tested this myself and found that the DSJr sounded better even running through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp than it did straight into my amp (the receiver uses pre-outs to the same amp). I don't want to run a DSJr through a Marantz receiver and if I blow the budget on the DAC, I won't be able to get a capable preamp worthy of mating with it. Plus I'm really trying to get down to fewer boxes.
Are there any other options out there that I'm missing?
70 responses Add your response
@edsky Initially I had the Marantz receiver in the family room due to the need for dual purpose with tv viewing. I run the preouts to my Musical Fidelity amp, so the receiver just acts as a preamp and DAC. I purchased the NAD to replace the receiver as a better preamp and DAC, plus give me direct Roon streaming rather than Airplay. I don’t plan to setup an HT bypass since the family room is just a 2.1 setup. I have a separate media room with surround sound. |
@jnehma1 quite right, you can do the same with Roon. My apologies as I forgot you had Roon, as you were describing AirPlay as the mechanism you used to stream to your Marantz. I hear very good things about Roon. Though very pricey, I may give it a try someday. If I may ask, how do you have your components set up? Are you using your AV processor and NAD pre amp to the same amplifier and speaker, or do you have two completely different setups? If using the same amplifier and speakers then I assume you run the Marantz AV pre outs into the analogue inputs of the NAD and run that in home theatre bypass mode? Reason why I am so curious is I am exploring options around the exact same thing. If interested, here is the thread... https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/262491-mqa-dac-preamplifier-with-ht-bypass/ |
@edsky Thanks for the feedback. Unless I am missing something though, there's no difference between what you described with Audirvana and what I can do today with Roon. In either case, the software does the first unfold but since my receiver is not MQA compatible, it wouldn't be able to do the final decode. @mbolek Anxious to hear your feedback regarding the M10 and the T758. I don't know anything about the Emotiva speakers but assuming by your response that they are active. Do you have any passive speakers to test? |
Jon, Interesting thread. I'll need to look at Audirvana. Thanks Edsky. I'll be trying both the DSJ and a NAD M12. I also have the 7703 and plan on replacing it with the T758v3 for the HT room. Auditioned the C658 and didn't feel it was that much better than the 2i. Maybe I should have kept it longer and given it a better assessment. Goal is to try and simplify as much as possible, but I'm steadily moving up the DAC $$$ food chain looking for the right product. I'm now listening to the M10. Love the build and ease of use. Unfortunately, not using the nCore amp as I have a pair Emotiva Stealth 8s that I'm using in my stereo room. If you remember my post over at AVSforum, my kids are older and I now have more time to listen. Love all the new options with streaming, MQA and miss how good 2 channel audio can be.. |
@jnehma1 are you aware that you can stream MQA directly to your Marantz from a PC. I was searching for ways to do this for a while. This can be done with software called Audirvana that is available for PC and Mac. You can download it and try it out for 30 days to see if it works for you. So the way it would work is you would log on to TIDAL through Audirvana, choose songs via this interface and Audirvana would do the first MQA unfold (up to 24/96). This is then sent wirelessly to your Marantz via a protocol called UPnP (it's similar to AirPlay but is not proprietary to Apple and it supports hi-res formats). The setup is really simple, Audirvana will automatically detect UPnP from your Marantz and show it as an available output. There may be other ways to emulate a UPnP connection to your Marantz so you can stream directly from the Tidal app, but I haven't investigated this, and if so, it may be a more complicated setup. If Audirvana works for you then you could investigate other options, or choose to buy the software. I too have been investigating dedicated preamp / DAC / MQA for stereo that supports home theater bypass to potentially improve sound quality over my Marantz AV8802a. The Simaudio Moon 390 is a strong contender, but to be honest, the sound quality from the Marantz is pretty good. Definitely MQA streamed via Audirvana is a notable step up. Audirvana also can up-sample 16/44 to whatever your prepro supports (and more importantly your network bandwidth will allow). Upsampling does improve SQ as well. |
I still think mine sounds good, and gets better by the day. Like many other components, it is very particular about what you feed it. Bad recordings sound bad, great recordings sound great. I keep hearing from folks that think it is harsh, bright, etc. Maybe because I’m a trumpet player, I think if anything it can err on the side of being a little laid-back and not as engaging as the best stuff I’ve heard and owned. When I auditioned it against an M12, this was my takeaway, too - it did not seem as "energized". However, that was a C658 straight out of the box vs an M12 with at least a few hundred hours on it, if not more. The M12 is also another ~$2500 if you add the BluOS module. There has been a lot of criticism about the choice of chip set for the C658. Please forgive this very naive and stupid question, for which I’m pretty sure I already know the answer, but is there a way to upgrade the chip set, or is it like trying to perform a brain transplant? Again, apologies for a stupid question, but I’m curious if that might be an option down the road. |
@firstonetallguy I have two Marantz receivers in the house, both of which have only ever been used as processors (I use the pre-outs to separate amps). I don't know which DAC is in your 7703 versus the two receivers I have but I connected the PS Audio through both of them and the improvement was easily noticeable. It wasn't like oh my god night and day, but I could definitely hear improvements. Much better bass and mid-bass quality, a bit more clarity and resolution, a bit more air. I use Tidal via Roon so first off, it sounded much better via the PS Audio simply because it streams at full quality. The Marantz products aren't Roon Ready so I had to stream to them using Airplay, which downsamples everything to 48khz/16bit. But I also loaded some of my FLAC files to a USB stick and plugged that into one of the receivers. Playing those files through the HEOS app sounded MUCH better than the same song via Airplay. In fact, that difference was even greater than the one between the PS Audio and the USB stick through HEOS. But for real A/B comparisons, I skipped Airplay and just compared the USB stick through the receiver DAC against Roon streaming through the PS Audio. Whether the cost is worth the difference is an individual question. MQA files, which only the PS Audio supports, sounded especially good so for me the improvement in quality across the board plus the added benefit of MQA made the PS Audio worth it. But I started getting upgraditis really badly and decided it would be better to sell the PS Audio and get the NAD as a simpler solution (I have a 4 year old and can't really set up a great system without putting it at risk of toddler-destruction). I'm starting to regret that decision... |
In all honesty with the crazy cheap prices that Mytek Brooklyn DAC are appearing for sale lightly used I can highly recommend them. Huge improvement compared to a built in dac in an integrated amp. Now I have moved up further to a $4500 tube DAC and when I have sold a kidney or two it will likely be a Chord Dave in the rack (10k!) At just over 1k for a used Brooklyn it is a move you will never regret. |
Perfect question, jnehma1. This is a great question for me. I am looking for the exact same thing. I thought the NAD C658 was the solution. I am very sorry you were not satisfied. There are no "professional" reviews out, as of yet. Thanks for your incite. You mentioned the PS Audio DACs and your Marantz. I also have a Marantz Pre/Pro 7703. I listen to my music and TV through its DAC. It is a good DAC for my music, but I wondered if I added a DAC into the audio chain, such as PS Audio's, could I hear the difference with average ears for my age. Please advise what difference you heard with the Jr. through your Marantz. Do you think the difference was great enough to be worth the addition of a separate DAC? Money is not the issue; hearing is the issue. There are numerous DACs I would look into, but before I go down this expensive and time consuming road, I would like to know if it is worth it or would I be just going down the rabbit hole with no satisfactorily positive solution at the bottom Thanks firstonetallguy |
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jnehma1 If it’s high quality sound you want, neither the Marantz or the Deqx are going to do the trick. Consider the Mytec Brooklyn but add a linear power supply and your Dave sound quality can be obtained. Beware HDMI swithching devises, if they do 4K, they frequently do NOT do Dolby Atmos. A recent struggle in my movie room. |
@rbstehno I'm gravitating in that direction. I already sold the PS Audio DAC but could buy another one. Interesting that their other preamp (the Stellar, I'm not counting the BHK due to budget) is also a preamp/DAC, so I wonder if that one really does work well as a preamp or not. @drumnman2 Do you own the 658? Any listening impressions? @golfmatchplayer The Oppo 205 looks pretty good but is discontinued and now people are asking 3x the MSRP for used ones. At the moment I don't really need any analog inputs because all stereo listening is through Roon streaming and TV audio is HDMI through a few sources (Bluray, Roku, Chromecast) that would probably just all be fed to the DAC from the TV via a single optical cable. Having an analog input or two would be nice for flexibility but isn't a requirement right now. |
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You already tried your solution: " Second, when I connected a PS Audio DSJr through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp, then to the exact same Musical Fidelity amp and Monitor Audio speakers, the sound was GLORIOUS in comparison to the NAD" You don't need amplification so a Pre-Processor would be ideal. Marantz Pre-Pro are readily available, both new and used. 7705 from Audio Advisor: $2199 NIB FYI- Kalman R was very surprised by the quality of the DAC in the next model up...8805, stating that it took upwards of $5k in external DACs to improve digital reproduction. https://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=MAAV7705 |
I couldn't find anything in the manual about the subwoofer output on the Nad so I emailed Nad. Took 9 days to get an answer but this is what they said about it.With the crossover engaged in speaker settings it is fixed at 80hz, and the main speakers are cut off at that point. The subwoofer output is always on even if you select no subwoofer so you can run your main speakers full plus subs. |
If you currently have the PS Audio dac, keep it, you won’t find anything better for anywhere near its price. Since this covers a few items off your checklist, now get a preamp that handles the rest of your wants. Btw: the ps audio ds dacs do sound better going thru a preamp. I have 1 and tries both setups |
@audiotroy I only used the Marantz in conjunction with the PS Audio DAC since it needed a preamp to be most effective. The NAD runs straight into my amp. Power conditioning is from a PS Audio Quintessence and the power cord is a Pangea AC14XL Mk II that I recently picked up to test out. The power conditioner is plugged into the wall in a PS Audio Power Port outlet. |
Me thinks you have a bad unit, the Nad direct digital sound is anything but harsh, the NAD m51 a very good dac with similar technology we sold for years and it was very musical and not harsh in the least. What are you using for a power cord into the C 658? Any power conditioning? If you are using the C 658 into a Marantz receiver and then into a power amplifier that could be your issue. Something is amiss our C 568 combo with the Nuprime sounds really musical the Hegel H 190 was much harsher the Nad/Nuprime was really creamy sounding. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Nad and Nuprime dealers |
@audiotroy Fair enough, I appreciate the input and I'm willing to try anything once. But my hesitation that the Nuprime is a panacea is two-fold. First, everyone in the NAD658 owners thread on AVSForum is describing the exact same sound (one guy even returned his already). Second, when I connected a PS Audio DSJr through a Marantz AV receiver as preamp, then to the exact same Musical Fidelity amp and Monitor Audio speakers, the sound was GLORIOUS in comparison to the NAD. |
Just ran into a brand I never heard of called DEQX. Thought I would share here in case anyone else was interested. They have a couple devices (PreMate Plus and HDP-5) that meet all my must have criteria except MQA, but also have room correction and subwoofer management. Not cheap ($5k and up) but I had never heard of them so wanted to share. I appreciate everyone's feedback |
There are only so many devices that meet your criteria; they all seem to be listed on the mqa website under the streamer section https://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/our-partners HDMI would be the sticking point that might make you look at the mainstream Japanese brands' receivers. |
Please get a Nuprime STA 9 to audition, yes it is a $700 amplifier it sounds like a $2k one you can try one from Audio Advisor, let the amp break in and then revaluate the C 568. Our demo of the C568 with the Nuprime was amazing, the package outperfromed the Hegel H190 it was no contest and that was with one Stereo amplifier the monos are reported to sound even better. Your Musical Fidelity amp is quite old and it may not be as smooth as you think it is. We had a client with a similar vintage Musical Fidelity amp and a newer integrated was far superiour sounding. Also Monitor Audio speakers can sound peaky used to sell them. The unfortunate aspect of upgrading one component is that it can show you flaws in other components. the demo of the NAD C 658 was with one Nuprime STA 9 with a pair of $1,600 Wireworld Gold Eclipse interconnect into a pair of Legacy Audio Signatures a $7k floor standing loudspeaker and in this demo the sound of the Nuprime/NAD C 658 was fantastic. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
Wrap your mind around the fact around the fact that many of these old audio names are now just marketing companies with no real factory oftheir own and often little or no QC control themselves . Van Alstine , for one, turns out a better product in the USA , for no more money and actually have American techs who can and will fix anything they make . Most of the old names do not . |
Elac Alchemy DDP2.. I have tried many of these integrated preamp/DAC products. All were a compromise vs separates. I have had the Alchemy DDP2 in house for about 2 weeks. It is the 1st one I have tried that performs at the level of the $6K DAC and $6K preamp I had used previously. Peter Madnick did it right imho.. I’m an Elac/Alchemy dealer in full discloser. This product gets our satisfaction guaranty with no re-stocking fee. It has to be good to get this offer. No dealer wants their capital tied up in returned goods. And you can hear it for yourself risk free, in your system. Jim Clark |
I only know about one product that have what you want, the http://lyngdorf.com/tdai-3400/ And it's not close to the $2500 |
@audiotroy Thanks for the feedback. No dealer near me so I ordered it from Crutchfield without any prior demo. I have the NAD running into a 250wpc Musical Fidelity a308cr power amp. I’m using DH Labs Air Matrix interconnects and I don’t recall the speaker cables. Speakers are older Monitor Audio Gold bookshelves (dome tweeter, before they switched to ribbons). The clinical/harsh sound quality I described is also echoed by almost every other owner in the AVS Forum thread for the C658. But I am definitely open to any tips that might improve the situation. The product has every feature I need and want, so I REALLY want to like it. I’m just somewhat doubtful that switching from a $4k Musical Fidelity amp to a NuForce is going to be the solution. If only things were that easy, right! :-) |
Might want to check out the new Audio Alchemy line from ELAC. The previous versions of these pieces got a lot of very favorable reviews. The DDP-2 is a streamer-DAC-preamp. https://www.elac.com/product/ddp-2-preamplifier-dac-streamer/?r=us I have the DDP-1 and it is a very good DAC-Preamp. This year's model adds the streamer function, which used to require a separate $1600 component. |
Have to respond here, the NAD C 658 sounds freaking amazing with the right amp and cabling. What amplifier, and cabling are you using with the NAD C658 if you are using it with a Marantz receiver as an amplifier you will not be happy, the Marantz receivers are okay at best we have installed them before not that good in terms of sound quality compared to the higher end receivers from Arcam, Audio Control, etc. We paired our C 658 with the Nuprime STA 9 which is a $699 120 watt stereo amp $1,399.00 as a 290 watt mono block set and the sound quality was outstanding. We did a recent shoot out of the NAD M10 which is a 100 watt Hypex amplifer with the same features as the C 658 vs the Naim Atom and the Atom was much warmer and fuller. If your dealer was using the C658 with the matching 80 watt Nad Hypex amplifier and or the wrong cabling that is the reason why you didn't like the sound. The Nuprime amplifiers are a hybrid Class A/D technology and are designed to emulate the sound and musicality of a tube amplifier this combination was so remarkable that we just ordered a second STA 9 to run the mono bridge to create this package of 290 watt monos with the Blue sound streaming dac. We compared the Nuprime STA 9/NAD C658 to a Hegel H190 and the Nuprime/Nad pair was warmer, punchier, nearly as detailed with a huge soundstage. You can give us a call and we can assist you with your setup of the C658 it is remarkable piece when setup right. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Nad and Nuprime dealers |
My solution, which puts sound quality above everything else, is to use a Roon Nucleus to feed an Ayre Codex. I'm quite confident nothing else will come close under $3k. I connect my tv to the optical input, the Nucleus to usb. TV sounds radically better than when I had an AV system, and the only way to get better 2 channel SQ is with an Ayre EX-8, QX Twenty, or DCS Bartok, Rossini, Vivaldi. |
Think budget is the obvious challenge as has already been discussed. I’ve got a Marantz AV7702 (newer are available) plus the Mytek Brooklyn DAC+ linked with a USB from PC running Plex and Roon and it does all you want, but 2500 is a tricky mark to hit. The Pre Box S2 (mentioned above) is terrific and hard to believe given the 400 price. I have that on my desktop system. Really great! |
The Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 would be nearly perfect for you because it does everything you need, but it doesn't support MQA natively and retails for $7200 configured with premium analog and HDMI inputs which are optional. However Roon will play MQA files and it does the first MQA unfolding. It's a neutral to slightly warm sounding integrated with Roon Perfect Room Correction. 400wpc into 4ohm. You're going to have to increase your budget if you want all that functionality along with sound quality. I'm moving back to tube separates and will be selling my Lyngdorf TDAI 3400 in a week or so for about $5k. Mine is the $7200 loaded model with upgraded analog and HDMI board. It's only a few months old. Good luck with your search! |
