1000 hours
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My experience with speaker cables has been to expect the biggest break-in steps in the first week or so. You can speed things up with a test track CD played on repeat every so often. It all depends on how much you play music and how impatient you are, which is why I use the test CD several times and then assess. All the best, Nonoise |
Did you twist the runs of cable? Important.... No more than 100 hours is needed to pretty much know the end sound. Break will never go from very poor to the best I ever heard to be frank. System synergy and personal preference are very important considerations here. Nordost is very different sounding vs Duelund. Nordost has more energy in the presence area and less midrange bloom. Very different sounding cables. |
I tried Duelund interconnects. At first they were...well...underwhelming to me. I decided to let them break in for about a month just to be sure. At first it was a little discouraging because the character didn't change at all for the first 2 weeks. A closed-in sound. Not much air or detail throughout the spectrum...actually a sort of warmish, slightly colored or 'honeyed' sound - like a "vintage" sound, but in the worst way here. But like I say, this sound signature in my setup anyway, wouldn't budge off of dead center for at least 2 weeks. On day 15 or 16, I began to to notice what I **thought** might be the beginning of a change, but wasn't yet convinced. Over the next 3 days though, things started to improve dramatically. By day 21 they had fully come out of their shell and they have proven to me their merit in spades. They, in my setup, are neutral, transparent, detailed with great imaging and soundstage. They are keepers for me. Might be tough for me to find anything else this good for near the price. Good luck! |
Excellent points by @grannyring
Break will never go from very poor to the best I ever heard to be frank. System synergy and personal preference are very important considerations here. Nordost is very different sounding vs Duelund.I agree wholeheartedly with the first sentence. If you don't like the cables early on, you will probably never like the cables. However, I use a Cable Cooker for the sole reason of removing doubts about how they will ultimately sound, so my experiences regarding burn-in, would be of no help to you. I do use Ayre's disc for touch-ups sometimes so if you don't want to bear the cost of a burn-in device I agree with the use of a burn-in track as offered on discs by both Ayre and Stereophile. I thought of one thing that might be relevant to your comparison with Nordost. I have some nice Furutech FP-Alpha speaker cables here. Even though I have several other good cables, those Furutech cables and the cables from Duelund or WE wire are the one's I keep going back to. The OCC alpha-treated Furutech cables are mostly neutral with a slight midrange focus and a touch of bloom. They do nothing wrong and seem better than average across the board. When I replace the tinned copper Duelund or WE cables with the Furutechs, I usually think wow, these sound really good and have even better high end extension. However, over the long term, when I go back to the Duelund or WE speaker cables, I enjoy the increased midrange bloom and fuller, slightly more impactful bass and find those attributes to be even more musical. In the end, the musicality wins out. The main thing I view a little differently than @grannyring is that I have not yet developed a clear preference for the Duelund cables over cables made from WE10ga wire. I am in the process of making another pair of Duelund cables and continuing my comparison between the two types of wire. |
I also love the WE 10 gauge and use it in my rig! I use a double run to the bass and now use a set of Duelund 16 gauge jumpers to the highs. The jumpers are made using 4 runs of the 16 ga in a star quad configuration with Furutech spades. Great sound! My runs are too long for the Duelund 12 gauge in terms of cost and length. I have to run mine under the house to avoid a cluttered look in front of the fireplace. 22 feet! The WE wire has a moisture barrier layer that the Duelund does not and that is a plus under the house. Both the Duelund 12 ga and WE make nice speaker cables. I do find the Duelund just a tad more refined, open and smooth. |
Had a four-cable shoot-out here last weekend and then just finished cooking my bi-wire, single run Duelund speaker cables this week and put them in yesterday. The five cables currently under consideration are all external bi-wire - in other words all the cables have two separate runs with a single wire going to each the MF/HF and LF posts. The aggregate wire size to each speaker is double the gauge listed below for each individual wire within the cable, except the star-quad configured #4 that has two wires (i.e, 9 awg) to each post. Each of the cables are about one-meter long. 1. Furutech FP-Alpha, 13 awg, stranded OCC in foamed PE 2. Harmonic Technology Pro 9+, 9 awg, multiple, individually insulated solid core OCC wires in foamed PE 3. WE vintage WE 10 awg, soft annealed, tinned, stranded copper in thin plastic and cotton 4. Duelund star quad 2x12 awg, tinned copper in oiled cotton 5. Duelund single runs 12 awg tinned copper in oiled cotton All of the above are terminated with Furutech gold-plated, solid copper spades that are crimped, except #5, which has the Furutech spades both crimped and soldered. Results: Last weekend, when I compared Nos. 1-4, I found each of them to allow the basic sound of my system to come through and they all sounded pretty good, but slightly different. I have previously used both #1 and #2 in my various systems for extended periods. However, in comparison, I fairly quickly, and surprisingly, ruled out #2 as being less lively and less fun-sounding than the others. #1 may have been technically the most accurate throughout the entire frequency range and was probably/arguably the most extended and energized (while still sounding realistic and smooth) in the high frequencies, but it did not quite display the midrange body of the tinned copper wire cables. The tinned and stranded copper conductors of cables #3 and #4 displayed the most body, fullness, and rich tone compared to the others. Those two (#3 and #4) were simply more enjoyable to listen to and between them, it seemed the #4 star quad wire displayed both more energy in the high frequencies and also "plumper" low frequencies but with slightly less midrange richness/body compared to #3. There was something very satisfying and simply right-sounding about the #3 vintage WE wire particularly in the midrange. I have listened to a lot of the WE wire and I suspect the tonal quality has less to do with the cotton over plastic dielectric and more to do with the soft annealing process, but I am just speculating. Based on my listening, I left the vintage WE wire in place for the week. I just completed constructing my bi-wire, single run, Duelund 2x12 awg cable (i.e., #5) and burning it in on my Audiodharma Cable Cooker for several days this week. I installed it and it does indeed sound very nice. It seems to remove a touch of the plumpness from the bass that I hear with the doubled-up star-quad version but it still displays a touch of upper frequency energy that very slightly detracts from the overall sound, but only in comparison to the vintage WE wire. We are really down to a trade-off between the very natural sounding midrange of the vintage WE wire and the slightly more extended and energized upper frequencies of the Duelund wire, at least that is how I hear it. Bass between those two is a toss-up. Although I have clearly narrowed things down to the stranded, tinned, copper wire, I plan to throw one more set of cables in the mix that I have listed as #6 below and then listen some more and decide what sounds best to me. I will primarily be switching between cables Nos. 3-6 and will report back after listening more. Another consideration is that what sounds best on my system may not sound best in another system, in other words YMMV. My Class A amplifiers and powered subs bring their own unique sonic signatures that will be different from Class AB or tube powered gear, and speakers with out subs will IME not have the same level of bass impact. Adding this cable; 6. WE vintage soft annealed, tinned, stranded copper in thin plastic and cotton configured in two star-quad runs with two 16 awg wires (13 awg aggregate) going to each MF/HF post and two 14 awg wires (11 awg aggregate) going to each LF post. These are terminated with Cardas GRS rhodium over solid copper spades - soldiered. |
Nice summary @mitch2 Lots of work on your part and I really appreciate your passion and interest in these cables. I think your post is spot in terms of the differences between WE and Duelund. Spot on. As to which one sounds best in a given system, well that will depend on the sonic priorities of the individual and the overall sound personality of the system the cables are placed in. I think the added plastic layer of the WE wire is causing more of a closed in and less energetic performance in the presence area. I should say I think it is a factor, however not the only factor as you pointed out. Now one can change the outcome slightly by the connectors chosen. - Cardas - more overall warmth - Furutech - more resolution and air - KLEI - very neutral and closest to bare wire connection I have heard |
@mitch2 thanks for the review and work that went into it :-)! On a side note, I made an interesting pair of Bi-wired speaker cables using two individual runs of 16 gauge Duelund wire and two individual runs of 12 gauge Duelund wire per speaker. I tried the 12 gauge going to the lower speaker terminations and the 16 gauge going to the upper speaker terminations. then at the suggestion of an Audiogon member, I crisscrossed the wires meaning one 12 and 16 gauge on the lower speaker terminations and the duplicate for the upper speaker terminations. Results were rewarding, worth a try! |
So I was able to try more cable comparisons this weekend. I limited the comparisons to the tinned, stranded, copper Duelund and Western Electric (i.e., WE) wires....Nos. 3,4,5, and 6 on my list three posts down. No. 6 was very nice, as I remember it but simply a slightly less "big-sounding" version of the 10 awg WE wire ( No. 3). I hammered No. 4 (the star-quad Duelund wire) on the Cable Cooker for two more days (it had previously been thoroughly conditioned back when I made them months ago) and then played some music. The No. 4 cable did everything the twisted pair of Duelund wire (No. 5) did, only on steroids. I really like the sound of this cable (No. 4) with my big amps and low'ish efficiency speakers. Although both were cut from the same cloth, the sound of the larger No. 4 was much fuller and displayed more body than the single-wire version (No. 5) and the bass of No. 4 was powerful and detailed. There is not too much difference in the gauge of the star-quad Duelund cables (i.e., 9 awg) and the single-run 10 awg WE cables but IMO in the bass, the larger Duelund wires sounded just a touch bigger and fuller, with a slight bit more impact. These are not big differences but subtle. From the mid-bass through the upper midrange I hear the WE wire exhibiting a touch more warmth and body while the Duelund wire sounds very slightly more extended in the upper frequencies. I would be very happy with any of the stranded, tinned copper cables used in my comparisons. Since I have options, the two best tinned and stranded speaker cables I have tried so far, in my system, and to my ears are the star-quad Duelund cables (No. 4) and the 10 awg WE cables (No. 3). The differences are so subtle it could come down to liking whichever is hooked up at the time. I would like to try one additional set of cables and since I have a bunch of vintage WE wire, I will be making a bi-wire pair using two star-quad runs per speaker of the 10 awg WE wire - for an aggregate 7 awg to each binding post or 4 awg per channel. I believe I can maybe just fit the 7 awg aggregate wire size into Furutech's FP-201 spades but this may also be an excellent time to give the KLEI™Harmony Banana connectors a try. The KLEI™ Bananas are supposed to accommodate wire size up to 6 awg, so they may be perfect for this very large cable. I will let you all know how those turn out. |
@mitch2 You have a lot of wire at home 🙂 Great stuff and I so appreciate your efforts. You will be interested to know my current configuration. It is my favorite thus far. My Dali Epicon 6 speakers are biwire. I had always used two separate cable runs for true biwire hook up until about a month ago. Here is what I did. I have a double run of the WE10 (7 gauge) going into the bass posts only. Two twisted pairs combined at the banana connectors. I then jump up to the highs with my new Duelund jumpers. The jumpers are made with four 16ga stranded and tinned Duelund conductors and Furutech spades. The sound is fantastic. Yes, even better than biwire (WE10) on my particular set of speakers. |
The KLEI will need some 150 hours before some initial brightness completely disappears. I know you use a cooker, but wanted you to know. After that they sound very neutral as if using bare wire only. I have used these on 16,12, and 10 gauge WE and Duelund wire with great results. I do not think they can accommodate the combination of two WE10 stranded wires. They accommodate a properly solder tinned 10 ga WE wire almost perfectly with little room for a second as I recall. |
Thanks for the tips grannyring. After considering, I plan to make two separate star-quad sets so I will not need to terminate 4x10 awg wires together at the amp end. One set will need to stack so at least one set will need bananas at the amp end. KLEI says 6 awg will fit but I will ask the folks at Partsconnexion. Not sure what else I can get 7 awg into. If the FP-201s or KLEIs don’t work, then I suppose I could twist the two 10 awg wires together, tin them, and then soldier them to Cardas GRS spades. Thanks again for your insight on the KLEI bananas. |
These fit two WE10 wires. I use them. Slightly on the warmish side in SQ. Set screws. http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-ncb-80-banana-p-4053?osCsid=eaa2da58afeabf3d0e8d4... http://www.soniccraft.com/product_info.php/neotech-sk-8y-spade-p-2020 I have not tried these, but they accommodate 5 gauge. They have spades and other choices also.... https://www.douglasconnection.com/Furez-TSTWP48XLNP-Bare-Copper-Banana-Plug-Connectors-Pair-FZTSTWP4... I use the KLEI on a weekly basis and just cannot imagine 2 of the WEs fitting. You would have to open up the split cut bottom tube used for soldering and then it would. It just would not fit back into the plastic case. Could you fit a nice clean solid core 6 gauge? Perhaps, but two finely stranded 10 gauge conductors is a much different reality as you know. |
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@grannyring Thanks for the recommendations. I own some of the Furez connectors and they do accommodate really big wire. They are said to be pure copper and would work for the two 10 awg WE wires, but for some reason I like the sound of Furutech's copper better, at least when comparing spades between the two companies. The attractive thing about KLEI is that the conductor is supposed to be solid copper while most bananas are made from an alloy. I am disappointed to hear they do not accommodate larger wire sizes. I have linked their "brochure" below which indicates they will take large wire as quoted below from the brochure; "Cable Conductor OD sizes up to 4mm (6awg)"KLEI Brochure: https://www.partsconnexion.com/media/pdfs/KLEI-83432.pdf Assuming I am willing to live with "non-magnetic phosphor bronze" connectors these bananas linked below from Furutech look interesting and are supposed to accommodate a wire diameter of 5mm (which corresponds to somewhere between about 4-5 awg. They allow a set screw connection, same as the FP-201 spades that I like to use. The only reason I have not tried the Furutech bananas before is that I typically use pure copper connectors. https://www.partsconnexion.com/FTECH-71115.html |
@twoleftears Partsconnexion's ad says they are made from "Gold-Plated Copper" but without specifics it is not clear whether this is actual copper or an alloy containing copper. I could not find out any more on their website but the items in their line-up appear to be of a high quality. Interestingly, I looked up several of the other banana connectors listed and found a wide range of conductivity based on the metal used. Bananas typically use an alloy of copper to improve ductility and durability over that of pure copper. KLEI is an exception since they use pure copper plated with silver. Below are some others and the associated conductivity relative to the International Annealed Copper Standard (IACS); -Furez Tensioned Split Tube Banana Plug, C14500 Tellurium Copper - 93% IACS -Mundorf BFA Beryllium Copper Banana Plug - 60-63% IACS - ConneX Connector Banana Plug, Brass - 28% IACS - Furutech FP-200B(G) Banana Connector, Phosphor Bronze - (? see below)% IACS (Phosphor Bronze is typically rated from about 15-20% IACS but apparently there is an "E" version ( 1.25% Phos. Grade E) that is rated up to 50% IACS.....I have no idea which Phosphor Bronze is used for the Furutech bananas) I already own some of the Furez bananas so will use them if I need bananas. |
When dealing. With speaker wire you are not sending hardly any voltage or current , 7nless you have built in powered subs a AWG 10 wire can carry over 20 amps your speakers don’t use even 1/10 th that or less on average awg 10 is Plenty large and super low resistance ,quality is key. look at Audience AU-24 never a huge gauge but sounds very respectable. |