The use of GaN-based power transistor tech is now emerging for Class D audio power amplifiers. Seems appropriate to devote a forum thread to this topic. At least 3 companies have commercial class D amps in their books:
Merrill Audio, with their model Element 118 ($36k per monoblock, 400 W into 8 ohms, 800W into 4 ohms), Element 116 ($22k per monoblock, 300 W into 8 ohms, 600W into 4 ohms) and Element 114 (coming soon). https://merrillaudio.net
We are testing different input impedance values for the best result in all situations. .Once the final number is settled on I’ll let you know..
@ George, you know that there is a customer base out there that will not buy basic box components. There are also designers with design aspirations beyond rudimentary boxes of bent steel sheet metal. Being that I am a manufacturer and dealer I have plenty of buyers that do not buy anything that looks like a sheet metal box .So there is nothing wrong with a pretty box at a premium price. You must absolutely hate fine art. You know that Rembrandt is just antique canvas and old wood framed up with a few pence of oil and pigment. Levis jeans are $50 and they are the same dang thing as a Chinese pair of denim jeans for $15. As an importer of the best Chinese audio product currently being made in many peoples opinion, I can tell you this. Chinese tune product differently than America and Europe. You can have a dead nuts clone from China of a DartZeel and it will not sound the same. Plus there is this thing called pride of ownership. and some of us have it. Ive spent a good amount of my career trying to find the Chinese equivalent to the world class or even semi world class, and Ive not been able to find it. Look, the same things piss me off that piss you off. For me though it has to be more blatant, Like a $36K Mono with a chassis cobbled together using everyday, off the shelf parts. again, we could pick anything apart we want to as a waste of money. So some people want $2K Monos with a basic box from China, others want something with similar parts but made in USA and produced inside a piece of functional art. Neither one is wrong,.So please lets not vilify those that value different features than we do. These forums have a very bad reputation for crap talking bordering slander that ends up crippling this place for use as intended which is to be a place where new audiophiles can come and feel welcomed. As well as where manufacturers and dealers can interfece with the potential buyers without fear of damaging allegations or otherwise generally negative comments about us. Its why I rarely come here. We already fight the stigma of the 1980s stereo salesman, lets not keep that crap alive, I say we snuff it here and now. We will all come down for a walkabout with our favorite Cobber and sit around the campfire eating Barramundi, OK ? .
I buy audio equipment first and foremost for it’s sound, second comes price, last is looks. I’m not one of these that sets up his "glitzy chassis" multi $k equipment in between the speakers on just as "glitzy" racks, so I can gaze at it in wonderment and say to myself wow how good it looks instead of listening to the music. And at the same time all that "glitzy" equipment your gazing at is ruining the stereo image and depth.
Not when you knowingly prop it up in-between the speakers like the "great glitz
audio
god" and ruin any great stereo image and depth you may have had, then your "what you said"
We are testing different input impedance values for the best result in all situations. .Once the final number is settled on I’ll let you know..
Testing??? there's nothing to test, once you have a "Output to Input" impedance ratio of 1:10 or more, your fine.
We had a large participant demo at our audio society meeting, about 35-40 "golden ear'ed" audiophiles were present. I designed a switchable on the fly input impedance changer on a very good amp that was in a very good system.
This impedance changer change the "O/I" impedance ratio in 20 increments of from 1:100 down to 1:5. It was at 1:5 that only two "super golden ear'ed" audiophiles "thought" they could hear a difference for the worse, but they also both said they probably couldn't pick it in a blind A/B. All said they heard a difference at 1:3. AC levels were checked to the mV for all ratios to be the same.
George, wasn't it you who told me when I had the Hattor XLR passive pre that it was a impedance mismatch with both my Emerald Physics, then later with my Audio Alchemy DPA-1?
LOL< great, because I am a big fan of nice chassis work since it is rather scarce. Now thats 2 about the rack in the center. Ive got a rack to the ceiling dead center of the front wall. This is because my rig is also my showroom. So at any given time I have a bunch of different gear different types of circuits or classes of audio so I can demonstrate for people. Personally I would love an empty room with nothing but 2 speakers, everything hidden. I do not like a cluttered look for myself personally. At one point just for the heck of it I will go ahead and move that rack because it's on wheels and if it's not night and day different it's gonna stay there. The thing is speakers are 5 feet in front of the rack so there's nothing in between the speakers furthermore I like my image to come forward from the baffles as well as go back. I do not like the typical audiophile sonic that just only goes back.
tweak1 George, wasn’t it you who told me when I had the Hattor XLR passive pre George, wasn’t it you who told me when I had the Hattor XLR passive pre that it was a impedance mismatch with both my Emerald Physics, then later with my Audio Alchemy DPA-1?
With one there was a mismatch and you weren’t getting the best from it, with the other it was fine. And I suggested a buffer stage with the Hattor for the Emerald Phyics
Actually hate to say, your Emerald Phyics EP-100.2SE Class-D amps are not a great match for a passive pre, as their input impedance is "not typical" as they are very low at 19kohm, your passive preamp while working fine would sound even better if it had a unity gain buffer on it’s output. For a 10kohm passive to work it’s magic the input impedance of an amp/s should be 33kohm or higher.
tweak1 OP I have been keen on getting a Nord Two Stereo amp, but need to sell at least one SE first
This will be great with your Hattor Passive Pre and much better. As the Nord is double the input impedance of the Emerald Phyics no need for a buffer then. I always say the best buffer is no buffer if possible.
Enough on this impedance subject or celander will get his nickers in a knot, especially Michael Powell for bringing it up..
Guys, I don't understand why always in forums like this new things, technologies got trashed and blamed just because only a few people had the chance to really experience these new things and only a few people know how good they really are. The topic of this thread is "There are new GaN based Class D amps out there, has anyone listen to it or even own one of it?". I want to stick to topic and want to add: I'm using the AGDs Vivace GaNTubes together with a Mark Levinson No.28 Pre (yes it's an old one but still in very good shape compared to many others) and it works perfectly together. At least from what I can hear :). I would be interested to hear from other people experiences from listening sessions against other power amps maybe...I'm not interested in discussion whether or not they are worth the money. This question has everyone to decide by themselves... as always. Either you drive in a Porsche from A to B or in VW Golf, both bringing you to the finish but with the Porsche it's a lot more fun :) Cheers,Mallard
The
topic of this thread is "Anyone
listened to or own any of these amps"
We
have done direct A/B testing between the Merrill 116 Elements and the AGDs
Vivace GaNTubes. Truthfully these amplifiers are night and day differences. We
tested both these amplifiers and several other class D amplifiers in 6 very
good systems. We have not finished all our testing as of today but I can tell you
that class D can either sound world class or very average. We have concluded
that GaN can also sound world class or very average. We did not test the Technics
SE-R1. We did not do any bench testing and all 6 systems are very different
with only 1 common factor, the cabling.
Hello Mallard, I concur with you.... Personally, I neither rail against GaN nor do I trumpet it as the imminent savior of the high end audio industry.... Rather, I am openly curious about it, and hope that in the hands of competent designers/engineers it can be a useful part of the brodening toolkit available for creating superior amplifiers, not necessarily to the exlusion of other technologies.
Worldwidewholesales has the right idea in bringing into his lab to evaluate both the Element 116 and the VIvace... I am looking forward to reading his opinions of these two devices.
Here is a little more tech talk info on Class-D amps using the GaN Fets.
Performance of a Class A Amplifier and More
Class A has been the serious audiophile’s gold standard for decades. Today however, we are at the early stages of a seismic shift towards widespread Class D audiophile adoption. Why? Because a new type of Class D audio is quickly approaching the performance of Class A, with benefits not enjoyed by the reigning incumbent.
While the benefits of Class D abound, historically, these systems had largely been relegated to lower-power or lower-quality audio systems for general use. The technical reason is simple: to meet the required distortion performance targets (THD+N, TIM and IM), Class D amplifiers have had to resort to using large amounts of feedback to compensate for their poor open-loop performance. By definition, large amounts of feedback introduce transient intermodulation distortion (TIM), which introduces a ‘harshness’ that hides the rich subtleties and color of the music that were intended for the listening experience.
What you may not know is that the root cause for much of this distortion is a power switching device in use by almost every digital system today: the silicon MOSFET (think power transistor). While producing a more efficient amplifier, the use of silicon has been plagued by audio distortion due to imperfect switching, high on-state resistance, and very high stored charge.
But what if there were a Class D transistor technology with switching so precise that it could generate a near perfect power representation of the small audio signal produced by the PWM Modulator, thus reducing (or fully eliminating) the need for these large amounts of feedback? What if the technology were so disruptive that the bandwidth of the output filter could be doubled for High-Definition Audio without fear of increased EMI/EMC problems? And, what if the switching technology of a Class D audio amplifier could boast an “On” resistance with switching losses that were so low that power dissipation became negligible, thereby enabling the world to enjoy the benefits of Class D, at or above the quality of Class A?
In fact, that transistor technology is available today and is increasingly being used by manufacturers to create near perfect sound quality for Class D audio systems. The greater switching speed of Efficient Power Conversion’s (EPC’s) eGaN® FETs allow amplifier designers to increase PWM switching frequencies, reduce dead-time, and drastically reduce feedback; in turn, producing a sound quality previously limited to large, complex, heavy Class A amplifier systems. Further, this innovative high-speed switching technology has already disrupted myriad other industries, including telecommunications, medical, and automotive to name a few.
This transistor technology is called Gallium Nitride (GaN) and is poised to uproot the high-end audio world. In fact, GaN-based Class D is much more power-efficient than traditional, MOSFET-based Class D and offers orders of magnitude better performance. Performance that to many listeners, even surpasses the quality of Class A. At any given product price point, these new Class D solutions can meet, or surpass the quality of today’s linear amplifier solutions. As an example, the eGaN FET-based Class D amplifiers can easily achieve a mid-band THD performance of 0.005%, where a comparable linear amplifier Class would achieve around 0.05%.
If you think about it, this recent improvement in digital amp technology was inevitable. The whole world is going digital (vinyl lovers among us notwithstanding). The opportunity to remain in a digital world, from the audio source all the way to the speakers, maintains clarity that is impossible to achieve when going from a digital recording to an analog amplification system, suffering the degradation of sometimes multiple transitions between the analog and digital audio domains. For a quality Class D audio solution, it is possible to avoid these transitions all the way through the system to the final Output Filter, which is designed for best possible audio reproduction.
Significantly, audio manufacturers are taking notice and incorporating GaN-based Class D FETs in their systems. This is why, in another two or three years you will start seeing a slew of new Class D amps – ones based on GaN – rolling out to the market; and, for such varied uses as home theatre, car, boat, portable wireless speakers, along with high-fidelity home systems.
A high-definition eGaN FET-based system with higher PWM switching frequency, reduced feedback, and higher bandwidth produces the sound that has the warmth and sonic quality that audiophiles demand; while actually improving upon the power efficiency of traditional Class D. Class A audio’s historic lesser child Class D is coming of age with eGaN technology. And in the next decade, these systems will replace Class A technology, as well as the silicon MOSFET Class D systems in active use today.
In a similar vein, I have seperately talked to two Class D amp designers. Both said what is important with Class D is the design and layout of the amplifiers. The design requires a good knowledge of Class D, which a lot of other amplifier designers do not have but they are learning fast. They both agreed that one issue is not the 'magic bullet' whether it was GaN or not. So GaN may improve Class D amps but only if done well by someone who understands these circuits and not just because they have the GaN label. As always it may be best to wait and see what happens when the amps start appearing and get to hear what they can do. GaN may be a busted flush despite what the tiny THD numbers say.
I’m not sure whether the following thread was reposted here, but FWIW, a musician and professor of music presented his review of the Merrill Element 116 monoblocks vs. the Merrill Veritas monoblocks. From what I can gather, the Merrill Veritas monoblocks are Si-based Mosfets implemented in a class D design. In short, the OP preferred the SQ of the GaN-based class D design of the Element 116 monoblocks.
Thanks for that link, missed it. I assume this is a discrete component amplifier as opposed to the nCore Veritas but I have not seen any internals of the 116s.
Lots of class D and class A and class A/B amps are better than the old Merrill Veritas......not a current reference. Listen to the $8000 Nuprime Evolution amps......these might give the latest GaNs a run for the money for a lot less. Then there is the latest (just now being released) version of the DAC Megacherry amp ($6100)......I am sure there are others, as well. We need some GaN amps less than $15,000.........I bet within a year we will see some. By the way, DAC and Nuprime each have their own patents on class D and make there own stuff.....no stock modules from other companies. There is no reason why a GaN amp should be any more than $100 more than a mosfet based amp. So, in a few years, you will see $500 GaN amps......even kits. I think we will see a Nuprime GaN amp within a year (it is in development now).
The most exciting thing about GaNs (assuming they make Class D better) is that you will be seeing more and more integration in audio. Imagine a 2 or 3 channel GaN amp inside a speaker with digital input circuitry, electronic xovers and room eq. No more speaker cables, analog line cables, multiple power cords, racks, etc. You just have source and a couple of Ethernet cables going to your speakers with built in everything.....including GaN amps. We are talking super sound for the masses. The source box would have an A2D converter to convert your phono stage (or other analog source, if any) to digital to run to the speakers......very cool. Cannot wait.
ricevs said..."Lots of class D and class A and class A/B amps are better than the old Merrill Veritas......not a current reference."
Hmm !!! Curious as to what reference amps you have ’directly compared’ to the ancient Veritas monos in your bold statement of fact? Would you care to 'elaborate on your comparative test results' and 'findings please'?
Yes we have also tested the
Class D Nuprime Evo amplifiers and the new Evo dac and both products tested
well above their price points. We are still testing several different Class D
amplifiers in 6 different systems and this takes time for obvious reasons. Currently we do not feel that there is any
advantage, Class D GaN amplifiers
have over other top Class D amplifiers, based on our direct A/B testing.
worldwidewholesales We are still testing several different Class D amplifiers
Hi, you keep using this word "testing"??, yet I've never seen any measurement "test" results. Or are you just listening? If you are doing measuring "testing" can you let us know what measuring equipment you use?, as there is no mention of it anywhere on your site and if you do, do you have a link to the test result graphs?.
Measurements mean very little......you must listen, listen and listen some more.....for reality. Of course, really bad measurements are usually detrimental......however, what constitutes bad measurements? You would have to listen to determine that.
I think GaNs will make class D better (everything else being the same). However, we are in the infancy of their use. Every GaN and every mosfet based class D amp will sound different as everything you do makes a difference sonically. We have years of perfecting yet to come.
These first GaN amps are just the tip of the iceberg. We will see relatively inexpensive GaN amps that blow these expensive first offerings away......no doubt.
Cannot wait for Worldwidewholesales to finally tell us their comparisons of all these GaN and non GaN (mosfet) class D amps.
Here is a an email back to me from the US company "ClassDAudio" regarding the use of the new GaN Fet technology in any of their completed amps or very well priced Class-D kits they make, that use linear power supplies!! https://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits.html
"Hi George,
These will not be available in kits. These amps are complex and expensive to manufacture. We’re hoping to have complete amps ready maybe in about a month. We’re still finishing case design. Tom"
I’m sick of ill the informed, saying this, all amp designs, are measured, bench tested and listened to, in that order.
ANY!! amp worth it’s salt is designed using all the EE laws of electronics, and then measured/bench tested and listened to. If necessary then to change the sound, using EE laws again, modded, re-measured, re-bench tested and to make sure all is fine, then listen to again.
Anyone selling you an amp and saying it wasn’t designed and produced using these, I would walk (no run) away from, as he/she will be a voodooist and or snake oil’er.
I’m an utter tech dummy. I have no idea what “Fets” & “Mossfets” do & I have no idea if this GaN technology improves the amplifier side or the switching power supply???
...but I did hear a Marantz PM-10 the other week & thought it was superb. Powerful sound (200w>8ohm, 400w>4ohm) with real clarity. It has a toroidal transformer,
Marantz PM-10 is a conventional integrated amp. It does not appear to include a class D amp section, let alone a GaN-based class D amp section. So this post is misplaced. This forum thread is focused on GaN-based class D amps.
The GaN-based technology are power FET transistors made of Gallium Nitride. They are used in power output implementations, not in the power supply section.
The benefit of a GaN-based FET power transistor over silicon-based MOSFET power transistors is how well the GaN-based FET transistors track the input signal on square wave measurements. One needs to see a picture of such a measurement to understand this point. The upshot of all of this is that deadtime is reduced, overall negative feedback in the amplifier circuit is dramatically reduced or altogether eliminated, among other things.
If voodoo means listening to things and using the best sounding things then certainly I am a super voodoo lover.
Everything sounds different. Most things that make a difference sonically cannot be measured. I just did a listening test of three different female xlr input jacks (Neutik, Cardas and Furutech). All three sounded different. All three measure the same. This is the same for solder, wire, capacitors, fuses, resistors, damping, shielding, power supplies, bypass caps, etc. etc. All these things make the sound different and yet they all measure the same. This is from my direct experience of over 40 years of listening tests. This is why every single amp from every single manufacturer will always sound different. Believe it or not! It is not my belief.....it is my BE LIVE......for experience is the direct truth......you have to listen to know!
If voodoo means listening to things and using the best sounding things then certainly I am a super voodoo lover.
No, I called voodoo for saying "Measurements mean very little." they are very important if you can interpret them. If you are good enough to interpret measurements, as designers and bench testers are and "audiophiles" that bother to learn, then one can correlate the the way a product measures to the way it behaves when listening.
EG: An efficient 98db 6-8ohm speaker. But with 3ohm impedance dip, and a -60 phase angle at 100-200hz, everywhere else it’s pretty flat at 6 to 8 ohms, that’s why the manufacturer calls them a 6ohm speaker. Any tube amp will sound thin and lifeless because it can’t drive those speakers properly between 100-200hz. (a 3ohm load with -60 phase angle will have an EPDR that looks to the amp like it’s driving 1-2 ohms!!!) And if you don’t know what EPDR means then I suggest you look it up, there’s a few pages "technical" explanation in Stereophile. https://www.stereophile.com/content/heavy-load-how-loudspeakers-torture-amplifiers-page-2
All you have to do is read Stereophiles reviews that the reviewer had a question mark on a part of the sound, and 9 x out of 10 JA will have a part of the bench test measurement that correlates to what the reviewer heard.
And if "audiophiles" bother to learn learn those measurements, then you won’t have thread questions like "I bought these speakers what amp will sound the best with them" and you’ll get many pages of answers that have no chance of being correct just personal favoutrites, and this thread starter gets on the amp merry go round trying to find the best amp. But there’s one or two that will give the right answer and the reason and links to the measurements to show why it’s right, and they cross their fingers and hope that the thread starter has bothered to take it on board and at least tried to understand what he said.
Yes, really bad measurements usually correlate to poor sound. However, most all Class D amps measure fine (low distortion, high damping factor). This is my point. You were asking the person whether they were going to measure the amps (all Class D). This is what I was responding to. Almost all Class D amps measure pretty darn good. The Ncore amps measure better than most but are now taking a sonic back seat to the new IceEdge modules that measure great, but not as great as Ncore. Another words, the measurements have nothing to do with the sound in this case......in fact, the cheaper Ncore NC400 measures slightly better than the expensive NC1200 but everyone says the 1200 sounds better.
Some tube and solid state amps and some zero feedback amps measure poorly......and usually this has a sonic result. However, even some not so great measuring amps (Dartzeel and DAgostino, for instance) have a reputation for great sound in many ways.
The new Relentless amp from Dan does away with the not so great measurements. He uses over one hundred output devices to get low output impedance and super matches the front end so he can achieve low distortion numbers without feedback. I am sure it sounds outrageous.....at a quarter of a million dollars, it should. Dan makes his own output binding posts out of big hunks of brass......brass?!?!?!?! Brass is very sonically lossy. Why not Tellurium copper, or pure copper or PCOCC copper or silver or whatever.....but brass? You pay $250,000 for amps and they have veiled output connectors.....yikes! However, even the input connectors are $5 brass Neutrik connectors. How much better would the amp sound with my binding post bypass system and some better sounding xlr input jacks?.......noticeably!.....and it would not measure any different.
All the tweaks and mods I have done to the IceEdge module do not make it measure any different......but the aural distortion has gone down tons. You must listen. Measurements can tell you very little of the actual sound. Two amps that measure the same can sound worlds different.....so the measurements have no correlation to the sound.......they don't tell you how it sounds!
Just changing the fuse, footers, shelving and power cord on an amp can give incredibly different sound.....none of which shows up on a distortion test. This is just the beginning....there are tons of things one can do to lower the aural distortion in an amp that have nothing to do with measurements.....this is how it always was and always will be.
Measurements are fine. It is good to have good measurements (I certainly prefer better measurements)......but it does not tell you how it sounds.
You cannot read the distortion measurements posted on some Stereophile review and know how an amp will sound. All amps with decent specs will sound different. You could have an amp with really high damping factor and it sounds not so great in the bass. You could have an amp with really wide bandwidth and the highs are not worth writing home about. Every single thing in an amp will add its sound. One super bad resistor or whatever and BAM!.....there goes the transparency. Here is an interesting fact. Heatsinks ring.....yup. If you take your fingernail and scape it across your heatsinks and if they ring then you are adding that sound to the amp. Many people have tried damping their heatsinks on my suggestion and all of them are amazed at the sonic benefit......less "transistor sound".....he he....or should we say less "ringing heatsink sound". Again.....not measureable.....but certainly audible.
I am not against measurements. They can show you if you have a serious problem.......and some distortion artifacts (predominance of even or odd order, for instance) can be audible. But obsessing about measurements? Not in this house! I want goosebumps.......I don't listen to a distortion meter!
And what have you to say? Come on, you just like to be right and argue and have the last word. I try to inform. I think my post is very informative. I think it will help people. There is probably someone right now damping their heatsinks and getting better sound. Will your post help people?
Let
me be very clear because for some reason there are certain people on these
forums that love to argue and scrutinize every single word you say. We do not
measure any equipment but what we do is directly A/B products against each other in 6 very
different systems. The only thing each system has in common is the cabling.
The
question was asked " anyone listened
to or own any of these amps" and the answer is yes, someone has actually
listened, owned and A/B some of these amplifiers. The main reason we do not
give our results is because we do not want to get into disagreements with
people that have not done the exact same A/B testing or people that just come
on these forums to argue. Truth is we are just a group of guys having fun and I
intend on keeping it that way because that is really what audio should be, FUN!
Well, that was helpful. And I am going be as polite as possible.
For one to say they listen to a bunch of amps in 6 different systems having only cables in common and doing so via A/B comparisons while saying nothing—absolutely nothing about their listening impressions, let alone the identity of the amps or the identity of the cabling or components of the 6 different systems—provides absolutely nothing as a contribution to this forum thread.
And I look forward to meaningful input from the previous poster regarding specific listening impressions of GaN-based FET class D amps. The rich diversity of different systems in which those impressions are contexted should also be provided for the benefit of all.
I ask all contributors to think about what I requested in my original post. The implicit question is the solicitation of listening impressions about GaN-based FET clas D amps. Please respect that request.
Anyone know if the new Lynddorf amp uses GaN-FET? Saw the Facebook post,February 5 at 3:07 PM ·
"Today we show the prototype Lyngdorf 8 x 400 Watt class D amplifier based a new patented class D amplification technology which is the brainwork of my co-founders of Purifi Audio, Bruno Putzeys and Lars Risbo. This is the first of any class of audio amplifier which is completely indifferent to frequency, level and impedance variations. The actual performance is difficult to measure due to limitations to even the best test equipment (AP555). But we are specifying max 0,00015% THD+Noise, at ANY frequency 20-20KHz at 100 W/4 ohms. Intermodulation distortion WAY below any other technology. Notice the output impedance - scaled in micro Ohm!," Peter Lyngdorf
According to my well informed sources, Bruno Putzeys has left Hypex over two years ago. As such, I doubt very much that Putzeys latest design developed with Purifi relies on any Hypex/NCore patents.
George, Putzeys leaving Hypex was already known some two years ago.
Purifi.nl has currently no information about the new module design....I filled a form to be updated with any news. I have heard no clear indication one way or another on whether Purifi is utilizing any GaN transistors.... We will have to wait a spell.
Original question was "Anyone listened to or own any of
these amps" and I believe I answered that question. We don't post the
results because we do not want to get into disagreements with people that have
not done the exact same A/B testing or people that just come on these forums to
argue.
What we do is fun and we are not here to pump manufactures
up or put them down.
Why not be helpful rather than simply answering the question in the affirmative? Helpful means listing the GaN-FET class D amps, the components of the six different systems in which your group of buddies have tested them, and the cables. That is a starting basis. If you don’t want to contribute your listening impressions, then that is your prerogative. And nobody is asking you to endorse or demean any manufacturer. (I am not sure where you read that into my OP.)
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