Help! Tweaking My Lovan Rack for new Big A**ed Transrotor Turntable!

BTW, FWIW...

My audio racks are located in another room down the hall, well away from the listening room, so isolating them from speaker sound isn't a big issue.  Nor is isolating from footsteps - nobody is usually walking around when I'm listening and the turntable is in it's own room.

bdp24,

Oh, so YOU bought those used ones!  In my research I saw that add.

I did find someone who owned them, answering a question about their dimensions.  He said of the height:  between 65mm, and when fully compressed 40mm.

That should work for me.

Thanks for the input, folks.

I've read that loading sand is more finicky than rice into the Lovan, especially insofar as the Lovan pipes don't have a really tight seal and something as fine as sand spills out unless you go to further lengths to seal them up.

The Townshend Seismic Pods actually look just the ticket!  They look like they'd provide the type of isolation I'm wanting (for now) and they are adjustable which would help with leveling the platform.  Only problem is I can't find dimensions for the things ANYWHERE.  Including on the manufacturer's site.  How can a manufacturer not include such obviously relevant information as the dimensions of a product that people are going to try and fit under various types of shelves and equipment????

Good for you!  I'd need the higher rated ones anyway as they'll carry somewhere around 84 pounds above them.

I don't bother placing anything under the rest of my sources these days, so a one time expenditure for under the turntable (as I find it more plausible a turntable will actually benefit from a proper surface), is fine with me.

honeypooi,

Your rack does look similar.  Nice job on those maple blocks, love the look!

BTW,

I was originally going to purchase a frosted block of acrylic as the base on which to place the turntable.  My rational was that, while the Transrotor turntable is beautifully made, I'm not crazy about silver as an aesthetic.  So I intended to play with the reflectivity and turn it into a virtue; the acrylic bloc would have an LED light strip affixed to the back so it would glow in whatever color(s) I choose, lighting up the turntable.
(You can get such ready-made blocks online).

However, I had originally been set on some very nice turntables, for instance the VPI Prime Signature in Rosewood, because I love me some beautiful wood.  Turned out the Transrotor was just the better bargain all told in terms of what I was getting for a lower price.

But I still wanted to satisfy my desire for introducing some nice wood into the picture, hence I'm putting the turntable on a nice block of wood.
I'm also keeping the idea of lighting up the turntable with LEDs, either by placing the LED strip on an acrylic panel in front of the wood base, or hidden on a raised (about 1/2" tall) ridge at the front of the wood base.
I grabbed a Philips Hue light strip and played around; it makes the Transrotor table look quite spectacular! 

So up to this point I would have the Townshend Seismic Pods sitting on the top (thin) MDF shelf of the Lovan rack, holding up a 2" thick wood base, on which the turntable will sit.  But now I'm thinking I may add a thicker, more firm piece for the Seismic Pods to sit on: maybe a little sandwich thing like: top MDF Lovan shelf/layer of cork or something like that/granite or thicker MDF slab - and then the Pods holding up the wood base/turntable.

What a rabbit hole one can go down on this stuff!

Ended up at home depot looking around today.  All sorts of possibilities went through my mind.  For one thing, while they didn't have any granite slabs to take home, I grabbed instead some 3/4" MDF to place on top of the flimsy MDF shelf of the Lovan.  I also happened upon some thick, solid (but still squishy) various rubber matts.  Some for cars, some for workers to take their boots off on.  About 3/4" of rubber.  I wondered how those would do sandwiched between the Lovan shelf and the MDF board.  Then I remembered that some people have used foam in some sandwich constructions, and I found some nice 1/2" to 1" thick foam. They are the interlocking foam sheets (sort of like a puzzle interlock) used to make little kid's play areas crawl-worthy, or anywhere else a softer floor is needed.  They seemed to fit nicely under the MDF board, with just a bit of give. 

So I thought maybe:  Lovan mdf top shelf (thin)/layer of foam/thicker MDF board - as a sort of more solid, layered top of the shelf.  On that would stand the Townshend Seismic Pods holding up the 2" thick maple bass and turntable.

Am I nuts?

Thanks for all of the input.  There's a heck of a lot of opinions for me to consider (even worse when I research threads in audiogon and other forums).

I'm still set on a nice big hunk-o-wood for the turntable to sit on, then likely the Townsend pods under that, and they would sit on...not sure.  But I did put the raw 3/4" MDF sheet I'd picked up at Home Depot, on the top of the Lovan rack, then the thinner Lovan rack on top (also tried underneath).  I have to say that just adding the thicker MDF gives me a whole lot more confidence, it feels so much more solid, than just leaving it with the stock, thin MDF top.

I went to see a local wood guy who would do the wood block.  He's done similar things for stereo gear.  I'd first asked about maple or similar hard wood.  He had maple, wall-nut, but he pointed me towards a beautiful couple pieces of Siberian Elm, which when stained would be my preference over the other woods.  I've seen that Elm, depending on the type, can be in the "soft" or "hardwood" designation.  I'm not sure where Siberian Elm lands, but he insisted this was a really hard wood, similar to maple.

jab, mulveling,

Thanks for the additional input.  I really appreciate it.

Having priced a custom rack, I'm still stuck for now with the Lovan until I can afford a new rack.

I'm going to have a maple butcher block made, I figure about 2 to 2 1/2".
The Townsend pods below that.

I'm still actually deciding whether to bother filling the stand with anything.    I don't really have to worry about some of the main vibration issues because my turntable is in a room well away from the listening room.  And I tend to listen when the house is quiet and no one is walking around.  So I'm not sure how much more the is to actually isolate the turntable "from."

One thing I've wondered:  Right now the Transrotor turntable is sitting on an MDF shelf.   The Transrotor has 3 shallow aluminum cone "feet" that it rests upon, which you can adjust to level the turntable.  I notice that, at least on the shiny Lovan MDF shelf, the turntable is fairly slidy - there is no grip happening between the point of the feet and the shelf.  So I'm wondering if there are any little rubber pads, or shallow cones or something that would be good to set those feet tips in - maybe to provide further isolation as well as gripping the shelf top better?

Audioquest4life,

Sorry, I missed your comment.

Thanks for the welcome! Wow, the Apollon! And I thought my Transrotor table was a beast! Must be real fun.

I just received my Townshend Seismic Pods which I plan to use under the wood platform I’m having built. I had downloaded a seismic vibration measurement app, placing my iphone on my Lovan rack and then on my taller home theater rack. I must say I found it a bit alarming how much vibration was transmitted up the Lovan rack when I walked or lightly stomped near the stand - it was decidedly less on the bigger stand beside it (but that’s full of my AV gear and not suitable for my 2 channel stuff).

With that in mind, I’m looking for some more isolation. There are so many different opinions on this, ultimately I think I’m throwing together stuff that gives me my own piece of mind, without spending a million bucks. At this point I’m planning on securing the top Lovan rack shelf to it’s frame making it less tippy. Possibly filling the stand. I’m going to sit a Auralex Acoustics ISO-Tone Turntable Isolation Platform on top of the Lovan stand - it has lots of good testimonies for really fixing the type of sound transmission I spoke of. Then that will be the first base on which the Townsend pods will sit, holding the new 2 or 3 inch thick wood base for the Turntable.

I even picked up some of these isofeet:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Isofeet-by-SoundDampedSteel-Set-of-4-in-black-ROUND-80mm-diameter-/201230...

I figured I might put them under the feet of my turntable (might help make it less slippery on the wood block, as well as help isolate), or alternatively maybe I’ll put them between the floor and the points of my Lovan stand.

mulveling,

Thanks for the input.  Believe me, I'd love to get a new rack.  Unfortunately the Adona racks are too big.  I'm working with a really restricted level of space, which is one reason the small size of the Lovan has worked well for many years.  If I get rid of the Lovan it will be for a custom design rack, but as I've said, financially that's a ways off.

audioquest4life,

Fortunately my turntable is in a different room, down the hall, from the speakers so air-transmitted vibrations won't be a problem.

When you suggest spiking the rack into footers, would you be thinking of something like these?

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm

BTW, interesting test results:

In putting away some audio boxes I re-discovered my old Auralex Subwoofer platform that I never really used. It’s a thicker-foamed version of the turntable platform. I tried a little experimenting with the Auralex and my Townsend pods, using my iphone seismic measuring app placed on various surfaces.

First, I have tried the app on top of my Lovan, where the Transrotor table is now sitting. Right now I have a 3/4" sheet of MDF sitting on top of the lovan rack, then the thinner Lovan MDF shelf, then the Turntable.

What’s interesting, maybe a bit alarming, is that when I place my iphone with the siesmic vibration measuring app on the top of the MDF shelf, and rap the other side of the shelf (that is rapping the top of the shelf to the far left of the iphone), there is impressively little transmittion occuring. The raps show a small spike, but almost no ringing.

But when I place the iphone on the turntable platter and rap the same part of the shelf, there is actually a little bit larger bump registering, with a tiny bit MORE ringing. And I would have thought all the heroic efforts at dampening with this turntable would have yielded the opposite - less vibration transmission.

Then I tried the app on various surfaces. Putting it on my kitchen granite countertops and rapping about a foot from the iphone yields very little result on the app - so little vibration transmission. Pretty solid I guess.

Then I went downstairs to our pool table, placed the iphone on the table and measured the effect of rapping the table with my knuckle about a foot away. Definitely registered some bumps. Then I put the Auralex platform on the pool table, the iphone on top, and rapped the pool table top again. Still quite a bit of vibration registering. Hmm. (I found the same when I tried the Auralex on my wooden dining table).

Ok, pulled out the Micro Seiki turntable, put it on the pool table, iphone on the turntable platter. Rapped the pool table at the same spot....whoa! BIG seismic vibrations registering! It’s like the turntable platter amplifies vibration and ringing. Graphically on the app, it looked quite bad. Then put the turntable on the Auralex, rapped the pool table. STILL big vibration registered through the turntable platter, almost the same as without the Auralex. This was surprising to me as my intuition presumed such a big thick platform full of foam would have done better than that.

Next, tried putting the turntable held up by the Townsend Isolation Pods.
Rapped the pool table and...this time MUCH better! The height of the spike was much smaller and most of the awful ringing was gone.

I tried some other combinations - pulled out a squat, thick wood speaker stand I’d built a while back. Placed that on the pool table, then an MDF shelf from the lovan, and I measured raps on the pool table in that configuration, and putting in the Auralex, and switching the Auralex for the Pods. Placing the iphone on top of the speaker stand, under the turntable showed fairly significant vibrations on all axises traveling up through the stand from rapping the pool table.

As before, it got even worse placing the iphone on the Micro Seiki turntable, and was barely mitigated by the Auralex. And as before, putting the Townsend pods under between the speaker stand top and the MDF shelf holding the turntable - far less vibration transmission and ringing! In fact, though there was still some vertical vibration transmitted a bit, all the other axis L/R axis vibrating virtually disappears completely.

When I put my hand on top of the MDF shelf that the turntable was sitting on, and rapped the pool table, I could really feel the vibrations in my hand resting on the stand.  But moving my hand on to the turntable base, which was held up by the Townsend pods, and then I could barely feel any vibration transmission at all.  It was quite a difference and pretty impressive.

One thing though: actually rapping the turntable itself lightly yielded slightly different results. On only the turntable sitting on the stand, rapping the table near the tone arm yielded minor vibration spikes - interesting far less vibration registered than rapping the surface the turntable sits on. Putting it on the Auralex yielded similar results, but if anything maybe a slight reduction in vibration. But when on the Pods, rapping the turntable actually yielded, if anything, slightly more vibration or ringing than the turntable by itself. Though of the several times I tried this, it didn’t seem like a big difference. To the extent that was accurate, I wonder if that means the Townsend Pods are better at isolating from exterior vibration, vs interior coming from the table.

Anyway, those are my results thus far.

Seeing the results, I’m less inclined to buy the Auralex turntable platform than I was before. (Though, in fairness, if isolation should be matched closely with equipment weight, the Micro Seiki turntable may have been too light for the Auralex to do it’s thing. Then again, it’s also significantly lighter than the Townsend pods are rated for - I got the pods rated to hold up about 80 lbs - the Transrotor and it’s coming thick wood-block base. The micro seiki is far lighter than the pods are rated for, so I don’t think they were at their best either).

mulveling,

Glad you found it useful.

Though after a conversation with another audiophile pal - who has long been into turntables - I’m unsure how useful the info is. He suggests that when I’m doing the tapping test around the turntable with the iPhone app, I would be creating resonances well below those that are actually important sonically. That is: they may tell me about how well the turntable can be isolated from lower frequency foot traffic or whatever getting into the table, but aside from being bad enough to skip a record, that’s generally not the vibration interference frequency range I need to be concerned with (especially if no one generally walks around the turntable when I’m listening).

Rather, we have to be more concerned with resonances more likely to infect the signal, e.g. those coming from the turntable operation itself, which manufacturers seek to diminish with various approaches (e.g. mass loading in the case of the Transrotor table).

So I’m not sure how I can use the iphone app to actually measure those types of vibrations.

BTW, I received a package I’d ordered of sorbathane pads (1/2" thick). Doing the same tests, the sorbothane didn’t seem to really decrease the vibrations showing up through the turntable, on the iphone app. But, again, not sure how to interpret that. Sorbothane surely does absorb vibrations as it is successfully used to do so in various industries. So maybe my iphone app just isn’t measuring the right frequencies where I’d see the difference.

I’m also caught somewhat between two worlds, when asking for advice on this. On one hand I’m a long time audiophile, very familiar with the audiophile world of Stereophile/Absolute sound etc. On the other, I’m a skeptic about lots of what goes on as "knowledge" in the audiophile world, because audiophiles generally don’t have a very reliable method of testing claims, so it’s something of a wild-west mix up of technical conjecture and subjective bias effects, mixed into whatever may really be happening. Researching isolation control in the audiophile community, with all the differing opinions that include IMO dubious claims doesn’t give me a lot of confidence I’ve bumped into someone who has really figured this out, in a reliable fashion.

Still, I do like to take in various viewpoints and advice to see which ones make sense to me.

folkfreak,

Appreciate the input.
 
What aspect specifically of the design do you think would amplify sub sonic interference?

Thanks testpilot.  I've heard of that for the Lovan racks.  I'm still debating whether to bother doing anything like that for the rack.

geoffkait,

And others will say low frequency seismic vibration isn't the vibration we need to normally worry about; we need to worry about how susceptible to vibration/ringing/feedback is the surface you place your turntable on (that is, so it won't amplify vibrations already in the turntable system).

Hard to know which to believe given all the differing opinions, and very little objective test evidence.

geoff,

On further consideration of your website, and a bit of research....I think I "get it"  (Poe's Law is always a hurdle).  ;-)

Also, I can see your point about the audiophile over-worry about ringing materials. Thanks for your response.

Whoah.  I just introduced myself to geoff's web site.

If anything confirms what I mentioned as the perils of asking for advice in the audiophile world, this was it. 

bdp24,

Thanks!

I have the Townshend pods.  Thusfar, in my tests using an iphone app to measure for vibration transfer, the pods have the most dramatic impact on stopping external vibrations getting to the turntable/bass.   I'm planning at this point to put the pods holding up the maple butcher-block base I'm having made for the turntable.

Reporting in for a moment:

I just finished some more vibration testing with some of the materials I’ve ordered.

First: I am ordering a 2 1/2" thick maple base for the turntable to sit on.

So it goes: Lovan rack, 3/4" MDF blue-tacked to top metal brace of the Lovan rack, then the thinner original Lovan MDF shelf blue-tacked to that, for some stability. Then some sort of isolation feet between that and the maple block base/turntable above.

So I’ve wanted some isolation/vibration control to go between the lovan shelf and the new maple base on which the turntable will sit.

I’ve finally figured out what I want to do, based on tonight’s experiments.

The various isolation/absorbtion items I now have to play with:

1. Townshend Seismic Pods
2. Soundamped Steel Isofeet:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Isofeet-by-SoundDampedSteel-Set-of-4-in-black-ROUND-80mm-diameter-/201230...
3. sorbathane pads (1/2" thick)
4. Vibrapods - the classic - newly arrived.

So I’ve been wanting to isolate the turntable/base both in a way that reduces vibration getting to the turntable (e.g. from the ground the stand is sitting on) and also minimize any vibrations associated that the turntable/motor may be making.

To this end I’ve been experimenting again with the siesmic vibration ipad app in various ways: placing the ipad on a surface and then knocking around the surface to see the measured spikes in vibration, the putting the ipad either directly on a set of one of the above devices and knocking around the surface again to see if there’s any reduction in sound transfer. I’d also rap the ipad itself, to see if the device it’s sitting on reduced any of that vibration. Also, I’d do the same placing the ipad both on a butcher block I have, with various isolation devices under the butcher block, as well as putting the ipad on the platter of my older micro seiki turntable, and doing various experiments with the isolation devices.

My previous results showed the Townshend Seismic Pods were easily the best at stopping vibrations getting to the base. However, there was little reduction in the vibration when rapping the block or ipad sitting on the Pods. In other words, little vibration absorbtion that I could see in terms of absorbing from the turntable/ipad itself.

After watching some of the sounddamped steel demo videos on youtube (they looked impressive) I tried to re-create some of them. Today I used my kid’s fairly low tech powered toothbrush, which creates a rattly buzz.

I used it to measure the transfer of vibration from a surface that the ipad sat on, and also directly vibrating the ipad itself (pressing the running toothbrush on the ipad, and observing the measured vibration).

At first this wasn’t yield really significant results either way. But then, I tried holding each of the above isolation devices and pressing the vibrating toothbrush on to the device in my palm. The one that really stuck out as the worst in this test, by far, was the Vibrapods! Pressing the buzzing end of the toothbrush into my palm I felt a very strong buzzing and vibration. Putting a Vibrapod into my palm them pressing the toothbrush on to it created just as much, if not more buzzing. The whole vibrapod really buzzed badly.

Now...previous to this, if I placed the ipad on a wood surface and then pressed the vibrating toothbrush beside it, and then placed the ipad on the vibrapods, I could see a definite reduction in vibration. So they certainly do something there. But in terms of stopping direct vibrations, it felt like the toobrush vibration went right through the Vibrapods. Not too confidence-inspiring.

The sounddamped steel Isofeet, however, were quite impressive in this test. Placing one on my palm really reduced the sensation of vibration from the toothbrush! They work!

Same with the Townsend Pods.

Then I finally hit on the magic combination. I put an Isofeet disc on top of a Townsend Pod in my palm, did the toothbrush test and wow...amazing reduction in vibration getting through!

Then I tried this combination in various ways - the ipad sitting on it, or that combo holding up the turntable/butcher block, etc. Testing both knocking a nearby surface, tapping the turntable itself, and pressing the toobrush against the ipad/turntable.

In every case, the Townsend/Sounddampted combo excelled in reducing vibration, be it reducing transfer from the surface to whatever was sitting on the combo, AND reducing vibration of the turntable/ipad when they were tapped directly or the toothbrush was pressed against them.

This is exactly the results I was looking for. And got even better when I created a sandwhich: The Townsend Pod sitting on the sounddamped steel disc, and one on top of the Townsend Pod. The difference in how much I could measure, and feel the reduction in vibration was very impressive.

So....I plan to use a sandwhich of the Soundamped steel discs and the Townsend Pods holding up my Maple Block turntable base.

I also plan to order a few more Sounddamped steel discs to sit under the feet of the turntable. I’m even looking at the Sounddamped steel Soundeck turntable matt, which uses the same soundamped steel:

http://soundeck.bigcartel.com/product/sundeck-aluminium-black

That may be over-kill for an already high-mass platter like the Fat Bob, though.

All points taken, fellers!

I really am listening to everyone, though at this point I have so many voices in my ear it's easy to become derailed.  I have no idea how to figure out the resonant frequency of my turntable, stand or base.

So at this point what I'm doing is just having some fun experimenting and ultimately I'm going to go with the method that gives me some peace of mind.  It's not of course that I think I've solved any vibration issues scientifically.  I think it's more about the mind-set my experiments create.  Just being able to distinctly feel the differences various material make in vibration gives me a more tactile basis on which way to go.  Among the many different suggestions I've received, and all the many other threads i've read, no doubt there is more accurate info, but it's hard to discern which it is.  So, again, I have to ultimately go on what makes me happy.  I doubt anything I'll be doing will actually make an audible difference (I admit I'm pretty skeptical about the tweakier side of high end audio), but I enjoy the idea of making a design based on my own ideas playing around with various materials/devices.

@geoffkait

The Townsend springs clearly isolate whatever is above them from vibrations coming from below. So from exterior vibration. My main concern has been what is the effect adding those springs in terms of the system vibration itself (turntable spinning, motor, cartridge reading vinyl vibration....).

The video demos of the Townsend vibrapods under speakers show a deadening of ringing when the speakers are tapped, when sitting on the pods. However, in some of my tests using the ipad app, it seems I get a bit more ringing showing up on the tap test with the ipad or turntable sitting on the springs. Which seems understandable if you are tapping something sitting on wiggly springs. That doesn’t seem like a good thing.

But I seem to remember this ringing reduces with the amount of weight I put on the springs - e.g. if I add the butchers block along with the turntable on the springs. Perhaps the pods need to be loaded with a certain amount of weight before they also help reduce ringing from the item they are holding up. Does this make sense to you?

Thanks geoff.  Townsend has several different pods/springs rated for a certain amount of weight, so I'd ordered the correct ones based on my calculation of the weight of my turntable/maple block base.  So in theory I should be good.

I go back and forth with using anything between the maple butchers block base or just placing it directly on my stand, since I notice when I place the ipad app simply on a very solid surface vibration and ringing tests seem very good - e.g. a tap test on the ipad yields a spike with almost no ringing, and taps beside the ipad yield little vibration.

My turntable feet are pointed so the manufacturer must agree with you.
I'm thinking of putting a sounddamped steel disc under each point of the foot.  Couldn't hurt, seem to me.

@bdp24

Sounds interesting!

How big are the sheets you received?

Also, do they have an odor?  I've seen quite a few comments by people who have bought more industrial-oriented sound isolation materials that they can give off quite a chemical smell.

thanks bdp24.  Good to know.

I may try it bdp24.  Thanks again.

Yes, thanks, I'm aware.

My turntable and butcher block base would be between 75-80 lbs, and my Thiel speakers are 77 lbs each, so four Iso-Pucks rated at 20 lb each should work properly with either turntable or speakers.

Slight update:

I bought some Isoacoustics Iso-Pucks:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/IsoPuck

The Isoacoustics stuff seem to be all the rage these days, and I’m likely to try some of their Gaia footers on my Thiel speakers.

But for now I’m still playing with isolation devices for my turntable set up.

First impressions of the Iso-Pucks is that they are nicely designed with a feeling of quality and solidity. With the exception that one of the pucks, disappointingly, had some mottled, scratchy looking finish. The others were perfect, though.

They sit on a squishy bottom that seems to "give" in all directions (though the promo stuff would have one expecting it would give forwards and backwards, not so much side to side, as that is their approach).

I did my various tests: putting them under my micro seiki turntable, under a butcher block, tapping nearby with the ipad accelerator app measuring vibration. Also used the vibrating toothbrush to feel how much vibration seemed to get through the pucks, as well as measuring on the ipad app.

All this is usually done with the turntable/block placed on our pool table. So I place the turntable on the pool table, which is fairly solid, and tap around it, measure the vibration, then place the turntable on whatever isolation, or on the wood butcher block with isolation between it and the pool table, and re-do the tap tests to see if there’s reduction in transmitted vibration to the turntable.

Results were: I couldn’t notice any particular reduction in vibration with the iso-pucks. Putting them under the butcher block, I could wiggle the butcher block around somewhat, which is what they are supposed to do.
But I couldn’t notice by feeling, or measuring vibration transter with the ipad, any vibration reduction. There did seem to be a bit more ringing measured on the ipad when tapping the butcher block while they were suspended by the iso-pucks, perhaps due to the very slight rubbery wobble they introduce.

That said, they do have a really nice grippy feel, so the turntable or wood block feels gripped and very stable when sitting on the pucks. I like that.
The Townsend iso-pods have a felt top and doesn’t grip as much.

So after playing with the iso-pucks I went back to the spring based townshend isolation pods. While they clearly reduced vibration getting to whatever they held up (e.g. butcher block, turntable) they could also introduce a bit of ringing if you tap the thing they are holding, due no doubt to the slight spring wobble.

So last night, I thought maybe I should try adding more weight on to the butcher block. This is because I bought the "C" version of the Townsend pods, which are rated to hold more weight than I’ve been placing on them (I’ve estimated my Transrotor turntable plus the large butcher block I’m having made will be between 75 to 80 lbs for the pods to hold up).

So, with the butcher block sitting on the pods, and the turntable on the butcher block, I added some weights to the butcher block. About 15 more pounds.

THAT made a difference! Particularly to the ringing of the block or turntable when tapped or vibrated with the toothbrush.

There was a significant reduction of measured vibration when I had the ipad on the turntable platter. If I tapped the turntable itself, or the actual platter, the measured spike and subsequent ringing was well reduced, vs tapping the turntable when it was simply on the pool table with no isolation.

So my take away from all this is that, both measured in terms of "feeling" with my hand reduction in vibration transmission, and in measuring with the ipad accelerometer apps, it’s the Townsend isolation pods that are doing what I’m seeking. They reduce the vibration transmitted to whatever they are holding up far, far more than any of the other devices/materials I’ve tried. In fact, tapping nearby the turntable when it’s on any of the other materials produces little difference in measurement, whereas measured vibration is almost gone when tapping while the Townsend pods are in action.

And now once I’ve loaded the pods with more appropriate weight, I see a reduction of vibration/ringing even when vibrating or tapping the item they are holding up (turntable platter/base).

This settles it for me: I’m sticking with my idea of adding 3/4" MDF under my Lovan’s thinner MDF top shelf, as a sturdier based, on which to place the Townsend isolation pods, which will be "sandwiched" by the soundamped steel discs (seems a better combo than the pods alone).

That will hold up my 2 1/2" thick maple butcher block.

The turntable will sit on the block.

And just for the heck of it, I’m sticking some of the sounddamped steel discs under the turntable footers and under the turntable motor. (I’ve been impressed by how inert the sounddamped steel product is, and how it seems to do a good job reducing vibration, e.g. the toothbrush vibration test).

I’m also ordering a soundamped steel turntable mat to check out:

http://soundeck.bigcartel.com/product/sundeck-aluminium-black

As I’ve said, I’m actually a skeptic about most high end audio tweaks, especially the "vibration reduction" industry in which it’s held that virtually any piece of gear has to be "protected against spurious vibrations."

But of all the devices in which vibration reduction seems plausible to me, it’s turntables, for fairly obvious reasons. (They very device itself works via amplifying vibrations!).

Do I even think any of the things I’m doing here will make an audible difference, if I were able to easily compare just putting the turntable on my existing rack, vs the new butcher block, everything all tweaked out?

I’m skeptical of that too.

But...it’s been fun to investigate the subject, and to lots of hands on testing to help form my own ideas. The main reason I’m going the route I’ve chosen is that being able to actually feel, and objectively measure differences in vibration control give me a bit more confidence than simply "do I hear a difference?"

I still probably won’t be able to have this all up and running for another month or so. When I finally do I’ll report on the sound of my new turntable.

I think I'll try both the isopucks and the Townsend pods under my speakers to see how they work.  I only have four of each so can only try on one speaker, though.

Update:

Finally received my custom made "roasted maple" butcher block for the turntable base.

Looks beautiful. It's 22" wide by 17" deep by 2 1/2" thick.

I did a temporary set up, put the block on top of my Lovan rack with the Townsend iso Pods (spring based) holding it up, then added my turntable.

I tested with the ipad accelerometer app.  As predicted, the isolation from vibration (at least from the tapping and thumping type vibration) was excellent.

If I place the ipad on top of the Lovan rack shelf and tap the shelf, or walk around or stomp the ground in the room, the app clearly shows big spikes, registering the transmission.  But if I place the ipad on top of the butcher block or the turntable, the stomping the ground or tapping the top of the lovan rack is barely registered at all.  Further, if I placed the ipad on top of the lovan shelf, and tap or bump on the turntable bass or the butcher block, there is almost no transmission showing up on the ipad screen.

So, at least in terms of the type of vibrations I'm creating, the spring based system seems to provide excellent decoupling in both directions.

I know people with a rack like the cheaper Lovan worry about "ringing" of the metal tubes and try to combat this by filling them with sand or led shot or whatever.  I don't feel compelled to worry about that given how decoupled the turntable seems from the Lovan rack.  I don't see how for instance the turntable will set the lovan rack "ringing" or, any music transmission (the turntable is in a separate room down the hall from my speakers), or how it would be such as to rise up through the spring system into the turntable system.

But, hey, whaddoIknow?   I'm just fooling around doing whatever gives me some peace of mind.

Just another little test tonight - ipad w. accelerometer placed on the Transrotor platter.  Wow.  What a difference between this and my previous Micro Seiki floating suspension design.  (As one would expect, of course).

When I'd placed the ipad on the Micro Seiki platter and tapped the turntable or platter itself, there would be a massive register of vibration and ringing. 

The different design of the high mass Transrotor shows up in this test.  When I put the ipad on it's platter and tap the platter, it only shows the tiniest spike of vibration.  In fact, no matter how hard I wack it, with the ipad right beside where I'm tapping hard, I can't really get more of a reading.  It just stays this tiny spike.

I guess that's what high mass does for ya.  (And the Townsend isolation system appears to help somewhat here too).

Fun stuff.

Folks,

New question:

I have a bunch of new gear to accommodate in my rack, which means moving things around.  I need a new shelf for my Benchmark DAC.
I just realized that there is actually space for the DAC in between the top of my Lovan rack and the butcher block, since the butcher block is held a couple of inches high by the Townsend pods.

Is there any issue with placing a DAC under the turntable bass, in terms of any forms of interference?   Again, the maple bass is 2 1/2" thick, then the thick turntable above it.  The cartridge would be about 15" away from the DAC separated by the turntable/maple bass.

I also need a space to put my tiny raspberry pi computer (about the size of my palm) which feeds the DAC, and it could also fit under the turntable bass.

Any issues?  Thanks.

Not that I think there is any interest left in this thread but...

Bit more update:


1. Today I received my order of the ASC Wall Damp material, suggested by bdp24.  Thanks bdp24!

I ordered their cheapest box of 25 4"X4" self adhesive sheets.  My main goal is to use them as both a layer of damping material and a way to bond the top thin Lovan rack MDL shelf to the thicker 3/4" MDF sheet, to thicken up and strengthen the top shelf upon which my new butcher block/transrotor sit.

I was told by ASC that diminishing returns set in pretty quickly in using the damping material, meaning I don't have to cover every bit of surface in order to realize excellent gains in damping.  With that in mind, I'll probably cover about 75 percent of the area between the thin/thick MDL shelf, after which I'll have a bunch of sheets left over.  And I figure, what the heck, I'm going to attach them to the bottom of my butcher block base to add further damping to that block.

Also:

2. I received the Soundeck PM Black (platter mat), made by the sounddamped steel folks. (See my link in a post a bit earlier).

On sheer looks and feel alone I love it!  It's a nice, solid extremely non-resonant constrain-damped steel disc, with a really nice black/dark gray finish that has a nice bit of texture and catches the light with a bit of sparkle.  It looks perfect on top of the big aluminum Transrotor turntable, looks like it's part of the table and elevates the look even more.  Sonically?  I won't know until I finally have my turntable up and running.

It also gives a bit more grip between the top of the turntable (which is black...either rubber or acrylic or something, and a bit more slippery). 

On that note: I have also received with the Soundeck platter mat a thin neoprene mat.  And I received my Herbie's "way excellent turntable mat."  

My intuition is that I would want the record as "bonded" to the turntable platter as much as possible with as little possible slippage.  I tried the mats in various combinations and the best one seemed to be:

Soundeck (metal) platter mat right on top of the turntable platter, with the thin Soundeck neoprene mat on top.  There was the least "slippage" with this combination.  I could turn the big heavy Transrotor platter via touching only the outer edge of the record itself, and bring it to an easy complete stop by putting my finger only on the record edge, with no sense of slippage.  It felt bonded to the platter. 

Plus I like the way the neoprene layer gives a yielding, non-abrasive surface for records.

The Herbie's platter was very good that way, but not quite as good.  Plus, worryingly, the Herbie's platter seemed full of static!  Every time I touched, lifting it off, there were crackles of static.  There is nothing like this with either of the Soundeck platter materials.

I don't like the idea of dust gathering on my turntable's platter between record playing sessions.  So I've decided when I'm not playing records I'll have the neoprene layer with the Soundeck steel platter on top of it.
That way the neoprene layer is protected from dust when the turntable is not in use, and the metal platter on top looks far better.  I'll just reverse them when playing records.

I'm awaiting my phono stage and then finally I'll be able to hear my new turntable.

Over 'n out for now. 

When we hooked everything up we only got one channel playing!

Panic!

Cable-swapping time.

Thank goodness I had my experienced turntable buddy there because he ended up checking the wires of the RCAs coming from the Transrotor and, sure enough, one of the channel wires had been pulled apart.

It must have happened one of the several times I'd taken the turntable on and off the stand.  Wow, it's really true as my friend says, turntables HATE being moved.  It didn't take much for this to happen.

My buddy says it's an easy fix, a snip and a bit of soldering which he'll do whenever he can make it back to my place.

So, sigh, all that build up to disappointment.  My longing to hear my turntable unfulfilled.

When I finally get it working, I'll report back to this thread-that-no-one-reads  :-)

Another entry into the thread that is no longer being read :-)

I received my JE Audio Phono Stage and finally...FINALLY...set up my Transrotor turntable!

But before I get to that, here are the final details of how I re-jigged my meagre Lovan classic rack.

As mentioned before, the MDF Lovan shelves are very thin and flimsy. I wanted to re-enforce the top Lovan shelf so I originally bought a 3/4" MDF piece of wood to place on top of the Lovan shelf. That did make it feel more damped and sturdy. Then on top of that I had the Townshend iso pods holding up the 2 1/2" thick maple block, on which sat the turntable. I also placed a disc of sound-damped steel between the top of each pod and the maple block.

Then I tried adding another bit of MDF - another 1/2 board to the 3/4" board and, wow, that made a surprising difference in rigidity and solidity.
Significantly more "dead" sounding on the rap test.

Seeing how placing more boards together increased deadening quality, I switched the location of the MDF boards. Instead of sitting them on top of the Lovan rack, then the iso-pods, I put them held up on the isopods so now the MDF boards were paired with the Maple block above the isopods. THAT really made a difference - the Maple block became significantly more "hard," solid and dead sounding when directly re-enforced by bonding with the MDF boards.

So here’s what I did:

To bond the two MDF board, I used the thin wall damping material recommended by bdp24. A sort of constrained layer approach.
Then I painted that board black, so it would disappear visually beneath the nice looking maple block.

My pal was coming over today to help set up my Turntable (he has all the right stuff for doing the cartridge set up etc). I then realized I had a bunch of damping material left over so why not use it?

I decided to take the top shelf only of the Lovan. I opened up the caps for the pillars, and attached a whole bunch of the wall damping material inside each. Then, I covered the bottom of the thin Lovan MDF shelf with the wall damping material. Next, I cut strips and placed the wall damping material throughout the metal frame of the lovan rack, to reduce ringing/resonance.

Finally, I used blue-tack to bond the top of the lovan shelf to the top of the Lovan frame.

Result: Wow! I didn’t know if the effort would produce a result but it REALLY deadened the sound of both the metal frame and the lovan shelf! It’s far more dead sounding with the knuckle rap test, and the metal doesn’t "ring" at all, unlike the other untreated shelves below.

Further, to my surprise, there was a significant reduction of measurable vibration via the ipad seismometer app. Where before the treatment placing the ipad on the top shelf, and rapping the shelf or rack produced huge spikes and ringing. Now the spikes were much smaller and virtually no ringing! And that’s even before placing the additional isopods/mdf boards/maple block/turntable on the rack.

I’m glad just for the peace of mind/fun of it I did that last minute tweaking.

By the time I get to where the turntable is sitting, everything feels super dead and solid. And the ipad app measures huge decreases in vibration both "getting to" the turntable, or if I rap the turntable or maple block it’s sitting on.

So, I’ve done my due diligence. It’s up to the turntable now.

Unfortunately......(next post)....

bdp24,

Tell me about it!

It's ironic you mention room acoustics:  One reason this has all taken me so long is that I'm juggling two newbie moments: setting up a new expensive turntable AND attempting for the first time to integrate two new subwoofers into my system.

It's been a whole other level of expense and hassle trying to "do subwoofers right" with opinions all over the place on that too.

Ugh, another bump in the road:

When I swapped the position of the additional MDF boards to above the Townsend springs (and under the butcher block base) I forgot that this means the entire weight of the turntable and wood base is now sitting only on the top, thin MDF Lovan shelf.  This is precarious as, being a 3-legged stand, the back portion of the thin MDF shelf is only supported in the middle of the shelf.  I can see the lovan shelf bowing to the side already due to lack of corner support.  I can imagine the shelf even snapping at one point and everything tumbling down.

So, in a panic, I put in a temp solution: cut some wood posts to hold up underneath the corners of the lovan MDF shelf.  I did this for the next shelf down too.   So though the corners on which the posts are stuck are themselves "unsupported" spreading the load among several shelfs clearly added great stability.

But for a more permanent and nicer looking solution I plan to add a sheet of steel under the top Lovan shelf to support the weight of the turntable.  Not sure what thickness yet.

Since the other lovan shelves are so flimsy, I think I'll add a layer of steel sheet to those as well (and damp them).

My QUESTION:

While I'm out buying sheets of steel, I thought maybe I'd thrown a sheet - maybe 1/4" or 1/2" - into the mix of the base supporting my turntable.
So, maybe in between the maple block and the thick MDF boards that are held up by the townshend pods.

Any reason not to do this?  If figure the more solidity beneath the turntable the better. 

bump for anyone to answer my last paragraph.

Well I ended up with this:

Lovan rack:  Top shelf reinforced with steel plate, bonded by wall-damp material.  Rest of lovan racks damped with wall damp material, and wall damp material/sorbothane in the rack columns.  That really deadened ringing vibration just in the Lovan rack itself. 

On top of the Lovan shelf I have: Townshend isolation pods (spring) holding up a sandwich two MDF boards, 1/2" + 3/4", bonded together by wall damp material.  Then added a layer of steel (really deadened things), then the 2 1/2" Maple block on top of that, on which sits the Transrotor Turntable.

This means the actual shelf the turntable sits on is very dead and heavy, while also being very well isolated itself from floor-borne extraneous vibration.

I FINALLY hooked up the Turntable last night (with JE Audio Phone Stage) and took a spin of a bunch of records.

Holy moly!

Amazing.  High fidelity vinyl playback!  Super dark background, liquid presentation, spacious, clear...in some ways the best sound I've heard out of my system.  I'm continually astonished at how transformed every record, and recording, is on this system in terms of being able to hear into the mix every nuance so easily.   Now I really get what the vinyl guys have been saying :-)

The thread lives?

I haven’t put pictures up as I don’t know where to host them yet.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!


Months of waiting to hear my new turntable, months of researching in isolation and re-making my stand and turntable base.

I got two days of listening to it.

And my cleaning lady takes out my EXPENSIVE CARTRIDGE!!!!!!

I came home and went to put on a record, and saw the Benz Micro L cartridge was totally askew, pointing out to the wrong side.  Then I touched it and it was completely loose and wiggly.  What the hell???

Turns out my cleaning lady had gone to turn on the lamp by that turntable, was holding some cloths and a swifter, and something caught the turntable arm (cartridge?) jerking it from the arm rest.  She heard a "bang" and saw the arm had come off it's arm rest, so she lifted it back on the to arm rest.

So now I have no idea just how effed up my cartridge is.  Did it slam on to the needle?  I don't know. 

I have literally the worst luck with equipment - literally every single thing I buy f#cks up when I get it.  I should be used to it...but this one really hurt.

Rant over.  For now...

mulveling,

Are you trying to plunge me into full depression?

The Benz Micro L was a much more expensive cartridge than I'd ever have bought myself and the fact the seller was throwing it in as part of the deal on the turntable was a selling point.  The idea of having to buy a new cartridge, or re-build (which I hear can be close to the expense of the cartridge) is too depressing for words right now.  I'm completely out of money for new gear stuff.

I looked as closely at the cartridge as I could, with a magnifying glass.
I can not see any damage to the needle, it appears perfectly straight as it was.  I can't see any damage to any of the wires from the cartridge to the arm. 

Where else should I look for damage and how can I assess if there is damage?

My friend with lots of turntable experience just told me it will either work and be fine, or if it was damaged we'll know it right off the bat from the sound.

folkfreak,

Yes it's exactly that AS tonearm (12").  It was sort of "unscrewed" slightly when I found the cartridge pointed a bit off center. Slightly tightening that top screw holding the cartridge on seemed to tighten up the cartridge to the arm ok.  I hope you are right and I got lucky with this design.

mulveling, yes it was the cartridge itself that was askew, not the cantilever at all.

I put a record on the turntable (not playing it) and dropped the needle.  The cartridge/needle appears to sit fine on the record.  Does that tell me anything?

First, thanks for the previous replies.

Ok, so my buddy came over today to re-set the cartridge and check it out.

It seems like the cartridge is ok, thank goodness.

Though after re-aligning it the sound changed. Before the cartridge was knocked askew I had been trying to decide if I like the impedance set at 100 or 250 Ohm (my phono stage makes the switch easy from the front panel). 100 Ohm sounded darker, wetter, richer and more relaxed, 250 Ohm sounded brighter, punchier, a bit more accurate and "real" in some ways.

But after the re-set of the cartridge today, that changed. Now the 100 Ohm setting sounds like the 250 Ohm did, and I have to knock it down to 33 Ohms to get it to sound like it did before at 100 Ohms.

Turntables. So puzzling.

Thanks folkfreak.

It's hard not to be paranoid. Every time I hear something I may not like I'll be left wondering "is this how the turntable/cartridge sounds...or is this an artifact of the cartridge having been damaged subtly?"

Thank again.  Question though:

I find the sound coming from this Transrotor/Micro Benz cartridge to be in most ways remarkable - dead silent background, utter clarity, smooth, punchy etc.  The ONE thing that has me hesitating to fall in love with it is a persistent sense of "thinness" to the sound.  Like there is some scoop out somewhere in the midrange that makes things sound smaller and thinner.  It's a persistent tonal signature and it reminds me of a custom built tube amp I once had that had the exactly the same sound.  This was the case also in the brief time I had listening to it before the cartridge was knocked.

The Micro Seiki turntable with an old cartridge the Transrotor replaced had the opposite sound.  Bigger, fuller, more lush than my digital sources.

Any suggestions?  Is this possibly a VTA thing?  (My VTA apparently looks fine to my pal who re-set the cartridge).  Any other suggestions?

Teeny update:

Before buying my Fat Bob S turntable, I thought I’d been on track to possibly buying a VPI Prime turntable - especially the rosewood version which in pictures looked gorgeous. But I couldn’t resist the great deal I got on the Fat Bob.

Just recently I was able to see a VPI Prime turntable in action (black, not rosewood), at a friend’s place. I was a bit surprised because I found the aesthetics less appealing in person that I would have thought. It seemed a little more "messy" and industrial looking vs the way my Fat Bob looks on the really nice roasted maple wood base. Aesthetically I quite prefer what I ended up with.

I’m sure the rosewood version of the VPI would add some zing factor, but even so I’m not sure I would prefer it over the Fat Bob/maple block combo on aesthetic grounds.