Ok,Ok... NOBODY PANIC! CRISIS AVERTED! :)
@caphill I appreciate your enthusiasm! I do have to keep it under control a bit, and definitely want to maximize value. ;) I'm kicking myself for not buying an Oppo before they closed up shop; the aftermarket prices have gone through the roof!
So...I factory reset the Marantz, and then did the fully Audyssey setup. I then listened to a few CDs, and a couple of minutes of the last West World episode.
The good news: The boominess is resolved when Audyssey is enabled. I think it is likely due to my speaker placement; my left channel is just a few inches away from a side wall, and about 2.5' feet in front of the back wall/corner...and that corner of the room happens to really resonate bass (I discovered this when doing my "bass crawl" testing). The reason I have the speaker so close to the wall is that the B&W's clearly like being spaced far apart...and I've maxxed out how wide I can go in my room. Thankfully, the Audyssey compensated for it, and the lower mid-ranges now sound much more balanced.
So with this speaker placement, it seems Audyssey is a must. (Not sure why this wasn't an issue when listening with the Denon in stereo direct mode, as the speakers were in the same spots...but whatever.)
I compared Audyssey "Reference" and "Flat" modes quite a bit.. The "Flat" mode (which doesn't roll off the highs) had a bit more crispness at the top end. It was especially noticeable listening to Blue Man's Audio; the striking of the PVC tubes had a bit more of a realistic "pop" to them. But I also found it fatiguingly bright... so I went back to reference mode and I think that's a better overall choice.
I feel like the system's starting to sound pretty bad-ass, but yep, it's not quite there yet. The improvement in detail and instrument separation is significant - I've already heard so much more detail in my music than I've ever noticed before, and I'm enjoying critical listening immensely and discovering much more in the music.
But it's still a bit lacking on the visceral impact and spatial imaging. It didn't make me want to move. I want it to be more engaging. I have a hunch the lack of clear imaging is probably due to speaker placement and room acoustics more than anything else.
So now I need to figure out what to work on next (by "work" I mean "play"... I'm very much enjoying this process and appreciate your both taking me under your wing!).
I know you guys have mentioned the fuses and power cords. I also do need to upgrade my disc spinner, since it's not UHD, and it also doesn't have a digital coax interconnect option.
I should mention that we watch far more theater/TV than I do sit and listen to CDs...and at this point, most of our movie/TV watching is done via streaming. So ultimately this is probably going to be used as a home theater setup much more than straight audio. But if I can get it where I imagine it can get for audio, that may change. ;)
So I'm back to my to do list.
Since I need to do it anyway, I think it makes sense to replace the disc player next, before I tinker with power...but I know you both feel strongly about replacing the power cables and that's definitely still on the list:
- Play with speaker placement (my only option is to move them closer together, or tweak their angles.)
- Replace my Panasonic DMP-DB35 disc player (~$500)
- Switch to 6' coax digital between disc player and preamp
- Silver Fuse for Marantz ($20)
- New power cords ($250+)
- Switch from unbalanced to balanced interconnects between the Marantz and Denon ($150), maybe not necessary.
- Fix room acoustics, if possible ($$?)
Time to take a closer look at the Sony and Yamaha transports you recommended!
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Awesome, thanks. Appreciate the recommendations and advice! :)
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And your points about coax vs. hdmi are duly noted.
And yep, need to some work on acoustic panels. Thanks for pointing me to GIK. |
Thanks @cakyol. Caphill and Auxinput actually convinced me to get a (used) Rotel RMB-1585 (see above)...and then I'll be investing in a separate pre/pro at some point in the future. |
Thanks for chiming in - and good points. I've been toying with the idea of separates... unfortunately price is a factor, as you mentioned -- and I'm also worried about the husband-acceptance-factor (gotta keep it easy to use...)
But I'll definitely start looking around to see if there's something that might fit the bill. Thanks. :)
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Thanks everyone - I appreciate the thoughtful replies as I find myself on the edge of a very large rabbit hole... :)
So if I'm understanding @caphill and @auxinput correctly, you're suggesting adding a preamp (possibly the Marantz) and then keep the Denon to use as a straight amp? (and then connect everything up with RCA cables? Since the Denon doesn't have balanced/XLR inputs?)
Will also take a look at Yamaha and Rotel...
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Ok, then I'm now a bit confused. ?
Because of your 4K requirement, it is going to be difficult to find a good processor in your budget. I think the only thing I would recommend is to go get a previous generation Marantz AV8802a.
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Thanks for clarifying.
If I simply get another amp to power my front speakers (and keep using the Denon for signal processing), I still won’t be able to switch 4K through the Denon.
So I started thinking that maybe I could get a preamp and then continue to use the Denon as a 5-channel amp. The Bryston SP3 or Marantz AV8802A would both be pretty close to my budget for now (if I’m willing to push up to $3k, which may be a foregone conclusion. heh.)
Is it better to spend money on a newer/better preamp that can do 4K (and keep the Denon as a straight amp), or just buy another all-in-one? (If I do separate to preamp/amp, I could also plan on replacing the Denon with a "proper" 5-channel amp later.)
Thoughts?
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Thanks @auxinput - that's super-helpful.
I think at the moment I'd probably be inclined to improve the sound quality first... especially since we're not currently viewing that much 4K content and nearly all of what we watch is via streaming (I don't even have a 4K disc player...yet!).
So, if I am going to eventually end up with a preamp/amp combo rather than an all-in-one (and I do like this idea!), that leads me to the next question: What are some good amps to consider pairing with my speakers?
You mentioned the Emotiva XPA-DR3, but I'd be inclined to get a 5-channel amp, since I will be hitting space limitations if I split my current setup from the all-in-one Denon to a preamp plus two other amps. And, as much as I want this to sound great, I don't want to over-complicate matters (again, the husband-acceptance-factor is a significant concern).
Thanks yet again!
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The newer versions of the Monolith actually do have balanced inputs.
And hey, for what it's worth, someone left this review on the Monoprice site:
"I have a Monolith 5 and an Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 3 ... I prefer the sound of the Monolith ... It sounds more rich, detailed & powerful."
I'm willing to spend a little more if it sounds better - but at this point I'm kind of playing a guessing game, unless I can find a way to demo both (and Rotel...!).
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You two are making a pretty compelling case for the Rotel!
However I just took a measuring tape to my cabinet, and I don't think I can actually get it to fit along with my Denon (or the Marantz). The Rotel is really huge... The Monolith is about 2" shorter. So that may win the argument.
Then again, it may be time to go rack shopping... Rabbit hole, indeed...
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Welp, you guys won me over. Just pulled the trigger on the Rotel. :)
(now to figure out where the heck I'm actually going to put this beast!) |
@maritime51 - Thanks, though it looks like Darwin is quite a ways out of my price range...and I’ll need 5 of these cables. (yikes) @caphill - Yep, thanks. I’m very excited to listen to the new system! Just have to wait for trucking from Canada... :) At this point I’ll have to go with RCA interconnects because of the Denon, though I’ll probably want to upgrade to XLR once I replace the Denon. So it doesn’t make sense to spend a ton on these cables. I’m thinking of the Blue Jeans RCA’s - about $100 for a set of 5. https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/6channel/index.htm As for racking, I need to go with something low and wide because of my TV and projection screen setup and space in the room. I currently have an HTM2, but am hoping to replace it with the larger HTM3S, so I need a good, wide shelf for it (that doesn’t interfere with the TV or the screen that drops down in the about the same plane). Right now I’m toying with the idea of the Salamander Synergy 245... But instead of having the full-width top, getting single-column tops (on the taller cabinets left/right), and leaving the middle shelf open. Then my center speaker will have plenty of room to breathe, and my TV can straddle the shelf (the feet are on the sides). It just... might...work... https://www.salamanderdesigns.com/av-cabinets/synergy-model-245/ |
Thanks for the heads-up on the heat. The Salamander racks have perforated doors in front, and vents in the back panel... so I was thinking of putting it on the bottom of one of the cabinets, probably by itself. (I could also leave the back panel off if need be...)
In other news: The seller of the Rotel has a B&W Nautilus HTM1 center speaker he's offered me. I'm looking to upgrade my Nautilus HTM2... but was planning on seeking out the HTM3S instead (since it's supposed to be the match for the 803S).
So my next question is - what's the difference between the HTM1 and HTM3S? Is it significant?
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Thanks, aux.
For the Salamander - ha! But yep, I’m thinking I’ll either skip the front doors and sides (leaving the back panels in place), or will include the doors & sides, and then can leave the back panel off and in that case, you’re right, I won’t even see the difference. The nice thing is that they’re modular, so I can adjust as needed. This primarily comes down to an aesthetic question, so I’ll likely have to defer to the husband. ;)
I’ve got my eye on those various HTM3S’s on eBay, but the current ones are local pickup only, or they’re the wrong color (there’s one that I can’t really tell if it’s cherry or rosenut - and the seller has answered my question...I emailed him through Sweetwater and no response either. AND, I emailed B&W and they said they don’t have a record of an HTM3S with that serial number. So that’s two red flags. Moving on...).
Either way, I’m not in a huge hurry, BUT - my new best friend (the Rotel Seller) is offering me a good price on the HTM1 that he has (and it’s the right color...the veneer on that one is actually particularly beautiful!).
Since I haven’t listened to either of them it’s tough to determine how much of a sonic difference that’ll make (if I even hear the difference at all!). So I suppose the real question is -- is there a ~$1200 difference/improvement between the HTM1 and HTM3S? (I know for you, the answer is "yes"...) :)
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Thanks, that's helpful (yet again).
So the seller has offered me the HTM1 for $950 -- a great price, from what I can tell. And, he can ship it at the same time as the Rotel... so that would be the total price, no extra for shipping.
At that price, I'm thinking it might be worth it -- and then if someday the right HTM3S comes along, I can maybe upgrade then and re-sell the HTM1 (if I even feel like it's necessary).
So... $950 total now to get an HTM1, or ~$2000 at some point in the future to live with the HTM2 and upgrade to the HTM3S later.
OR, you're right, the Rotel will reveal the discrepancy in the tweeter (Regardless of whether it's an HTM1 or HTM2), and then I'll just be jonesing to upgrade soon anyway.
Gah! This is hard! (but still fun.) :)
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@caphill - duly noted, thanks. I'll lift with my legs!
@aux - The Rotel is so heavy that he's got to send it by truck..so apparently it does save some money to simply add the HTM1 and send them both together...
I'll be honest, too: The veneer on this particular HTM1 is unusually beautiful. Most I've seen have a pretty plain woodgrain...but this one almost looks marbled. If it looks better, it sounds better, right? ;)
My blue jean cables shipped today. Getting excited! |
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Yep. I realized that as soon as I add in the Rotel, my HTM2's weakness compared to the 803S's will be even more obvious (it's already lacking, with just the Denon).
He gave me a good price on the HTM1, and since there aren't any HTM3S's available right now (in cherry), I figure I'll try the HTM1. If I love it, then I'm done and I've saved some money. And if not, I'll keep looking for an HTM3S (and then sell the HTM1). Both should ship on Monday... |
Update! I got the Rotel RMB-1585 yesterday and got a chance to hook it up and listen to it for a few minutes this afternoon. I’m still using the Denon as the preamp.
I listened to just a few tracks and... WOW!
Huge difference! The sound is much richer and fuller, and the mid- and low-ranges are just, well, bigger (but not muddy).
The distinction between individual instruments is striking.
Towards the end of Blue Man’s "PVC IV" I found myself with an involuntary, ear-to-ear grin as I was just enveloped by the sound...the resonance of the PVC tubes was legit! That’s the first time I’ve heard that track where the resonance felt, well, real and impactful.
I hate to admit it, but I actually cried a bit at the end because it was SO. EFFING. AMAZING.
In other fun news: I got a great price last week on a Marantz 8802A on eBay (about $1500 including shipping), and it’s already arrived. (Thanks @hemi04 for chiming in--your comment helped convince me it was worth going for the Marantz too!) As soon as I have some more time I’m going to get it in place instead of the Denon and take another listen. Very excited for that next step up!
(I also got the HTM1... it won’t fit in my current rack, so I might just keep it on the floor for now and get it hooked up, too...Got new Salamander racks coming next week, with a semi-custom config so the HTM1 will fit nicely in the center. I’ll send pics once it’s up, I’m pretty excited about it.)
And then I think it’ll be time to replace my old blu-ray spinner. So... Panasonic DP-UB820, or.......?
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Good morning!
Yep, so much for the budget! Heh. I felt like another amp/preamp combo unit might be worth spending $2k on....but I already feel like I'm getting way more value by using separates, so that's why I'm cool with spending more. (And, I got really good prices all these pieces of kit!) So...Budget? What budget? ;)
@caphill - You're absolutely right about the amp. It feels like the 803's breathed a sigh of relief, like they could finally be unleashed and have just opened up so much more. I'm so glad you guys talked me into it! ;)
I hooked up the 8802A yesterday and listened to a few tracks on CD. I then swapped in my NHTM2 with the new-to-me HTM1, and we watched the Season 2 finale of West World.
The Marantz seems to be working great - I updated the firmware and have gone through all the settings, except for Audyssey setup. The seller didn't have the Audyssey microphone, but I picked one up on eBay for $20 and hopefully it'll arrive today.
[Sidenote, for anyone searching: The Audyssey DM-A505Z microphone, which came with my Denon, is NOT interchangeable with the ACM1H or ACM1HB microphones, which the Marantz uses. I confirmed this via email with Audyssey.]
Initial reactions:
For music, the clarity and instrument separation is definitely there, but I feel like it's lacking on "visceral impact." I felt like I had to keep turning up the volume, but then I realized my face was scrunched up a little bit, like I was straining to listen. With the Denon+Rotel combo, I didn't have that feeling - I was just enveloped in the sound (though I played it at pretty high volume too). The sound stage felt a bit more compressed laterally, with more things coming from the center and not nearly as wide. It felt a bit more recessive front/back as well. It was a subtle difference, but it's definitely not there yet. (I was listening in 2-channel stereo mode direct, no sub.) Perhaps I need to tweak my speaker placement for the Marantz?
@auxinput - you said " I suspect it will be more fuller sounding with more impact as well." I definitely agree with fuller sounding - in a big way...but the impact actually feels lower to me. If feels like the image is a little further away, or a bit recessive somehow.
I hate to say it, but my immediate reaction was that I wanted to go back to the Denon+Rotel combo! :/
I wonder if it's also now revealing flaws in my old Panasonic Blu-Ray player, which I was using for the CDs. (I was also transmitting the audio to the preamp via HDMI.)
For West World, it definitely sounded HUGE which was great... and having the HTM1 in the center was awesome -- the blending of the Left/Center/Right made for a much more seamless experience (the HTM2 always felt like it was struggling compared to the 803's). But it was also a bit boomy at times in the mid-ranges; it felt it bit _too_ full.
My surround speakers (B&W DM301's) are tucked in the upper corners of the room, pointed towards the center of the room -- and our couch is against the back wall. Not ideal, but it's what I've got. It provides a pretty atmospheric surround, but there was one point last night where the sound of a vehicle approaching felt like it came from directly behind us, and made me do a double-take...I've never heard that before in this room. I'll give credit to the Marantz on that one!
I just realized this morning that it may have been applying the previous owner's Audyssey correction; I'll double-check that later today. Perhaps that will fix the boominess. I might also just do a full factory reset on the Preamp (should've done that first!) and then reconfigure things again...just to be sure there are no other old settings interfering.
In the meantime, I'm curious to know your thoughts on my initial reactions! :)
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Oh, no need to apologize! I'm pretty sure we're going to be able to get he Marantz to blow away the Denon. I wouldn't be surprised if the Marantz is revealing other weak links in my setup.
I'm not opposed to tinkering with fuses and power cords..but let me first try the factory reset (and Audyssey configuration) and see how it fares after that.
Regarding power -- please try not to laugh: I have all my components plugged in to a verrrry old Monster Power HTS1000 (circa 1999...), running off a 6' extension cord (except for the Rotel, which is in a separate outlet). The outlet most convenient to my electronics is behind a bookcase, so I can't easily change out that extension cord; and I had to use an extension cord with a flat plug, to get the bookcase against the wall...sigh.
My understanding is that surge suppressors usually only have 10-year lifespan, so it's probably time to change out that power strip anyway?
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Just saw your followup...
I’m definitely not ready to "cut my losses" on the Marantz! I think it is likely revealing other weak links in my setup, so want to address those first...many of which I’d also want to do, regardless of which preamp I have.
- Replace my Panasonic DMP-DB35 disc player (~$500)
- Play with speaker placement (free!)
- Try the Audyssey setup (free!)
- Switch from unbalanced to balanced interconnects between the Marantz and Denon ($150; may still be able to exchange the first BJC interconnects)
- Replace the Monster Cable power hub ($150?)
- Silver Fuse ($20)
- New power cord ($50?)
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Thanks for all this... will definitely have some research to do this weekend!
On the digital coax (which I do intend on doing once I replace my disc player), you said to make sure it's minimum 6 feet. I'm curious, what difference does that make?
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Ok, you've successfully twisted my arm about the fuse upgrade! I just opened up the Marantz and pulled the fuse, so I could figure out which to buy. Looks like it's the 5x20 size. The circuit board and the etching on the fuse are T2AL/250V... From a bit of Googling, it looks like this means: T = slow blow 2A = 2 amps L = glass 250v = rated voltage My best guess is that I should get this one: https://www.partsconnexion.com/FUSE-80979.htmlThough that one appears to be an extra slow blow. Will that matter? I also just read a few reviews and commentary on fuses, and of course started going down the rabbit hole of various other options (and reading lots of arguments about whether fuses are "snake oil" or not...). Anyway, if i'm going to swap out the fuse, I'm willing to spend a few more bucks if it'll be an even more notable improvement.
The fuse isn't particularly easy to get to in the Marantz...have to pull off two covers, and then remove another circuit board. Doable, but it's not something I want to be doing often. So if I can get a better fuse now for a few bucks more...
I saw the Supreme 3 available around some shops for $60 to $75... and then there's the Synergistic Blue for $150... will spending more on those likely yield any better results? |
Just came across this power cord on Parts Connexion... wondering if it might be a good choice for either the Rotel or the Marantz, especially since it's 10awg. Tried to find info on "Connex" cables but didn't turn up much. https://www.partsconnexion.com/CONNEX-76701.html |
Ah! Already ordered...Thanks for the shipping tip; I went with the cheaper shipping since I probably won't have time during the week to test out the fuse anyway. And next weekend will be all about replacing/building the new racks, which arrive on Friday. And, painting the room; looking forward to darker walls to help the projections...
Onward! :) |
@auxinput - I do.
And haven't received the fuse just yet...will report back once I have a chance to drop it in. I've also been talking with James at GIK Acoustics... working on a plan to add some absorption panels and bass traps. I'm optimistic that's going to make a big different in the spatial issues. Onward! |
I had heard the fuses were directional, and was wondering about that, since the circuit board isn't marked. Good tip - thanks! |
I finally had some time to upgrade the fuse today, and to spend some time listening before/after.
I must admit, I was highly skeptical that a fuse could
noticeably
change things. But...I do think it’s an improvement! I’m not sure how much is placebo effect, but if I think it sounds better, than it sounds better, right? ;)
At first, I found that the presence and forwardness was improved, but at the cost of clarity - it felt a bit muddy, with less instrument separation and musicality.
I then ran the Audyssey setup again, and the clarity is back!
Now music feels a bit more forward - I don’t have as strong an urge to lean forward in my seat. It’s still not as present and "punchy" as I’d like - but I think it’s likely the room acoustics and layout more than anything else at this point.
I also upgraded my subwoofer recently -- went from a puny Energy 8" to the Monoprice Monolith 10" (nabbed a Cyber Monday discount - woot!)...and have enabled it for 2-channel mode. I think that’s also improved the punch a little bit, filling out the low end just a tad.
Next up: I’ve got some panels on order from GIK - going to add a few bass traps and some of their 242 absorption panels around the room. I’m optimistic that’s really going to help with the imaging and presence. The biggest challenges in the room are that the listening position is right up against the back wall - and my left speaker is about 6" from the left wall, which has a big sliding glass door between the speaker and the back wall... So the first reflection points on the left wall are pretty bad, and I can’t hang a panel in front of them. But I’ll do what I can around the rest of the room.
In the meantime, I’m already listening to CDs that have so much more detail than I have ever heard before... I just played Rhythm of the Saints and I swear there are four or five more musicians playing on each track than I ever noticed before. ;)
So - I’d say the fuse is definitely a worthy upgrade! Thanks for pushing me to do it, @auxinput!
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