No idea on your price range, but I would get a ARC phono preamp to match compatibility, appearance and sonics with your existing ARC gear.
81 responses Add your response
@jaym759 In my studied opinion and personal experience.... I don't use ARC electronics any more (I used to, but moved on), but a lot of people (including myself) think the Herron Audio VTPH-2A is about as good as it gets for a phono stage. Exceptional performance, flexible set-up, outstanding customer service and support. Not the only cowboy in the rodeo, but definitely one of the strongest contenders in any very short list of cost-no-object components. Lots to choose from for a table / arm combo. An easy choice might be a VPI Avenger fitted with an updated VPI arm. A less expensive alternative might be a VPI Prime Signature. If the Prime is chosen, place it on Bear Claw footers or (even better) original Stillpoint cones. Lots of other tables that would perform at the exception level to match the rest of your system. A good cartridge that matches this set-up is a Lyra Delos. As an alternative cartridge(s), other consideration might include Soundsmith Zephyr MIMC Star or Lyra Etna SL. Again, this is just a short excerpt from a long list of top performers. Your ears need to decide. In the end, it's what gives you the most musical satisfaction. All the suggestions in the world might just provide some ideas rather than a hard-fast list. From a personal perspective, my point of view, there are a LOT of very qualified turntable / arm / cartridge combinations that would make a fine match in your system. But also from that personal perspective and opinion, I don't think you can find anything better than a Herron Audio VTPH-2A at any price. If it were my money (and has been), I'd go with the Herron Audio VTPH-2A phono stage, VPI Avenger and Lyra Delos. But that's just me. YMMV. YOMV. That's MY OPINION. |
You are asking a question that has no answer. Your choice of equipment only tells us a little about you. You like ARC, like tubes, and you either seek value in used equipment or haven't updated perfectly good gear in quite some time. I owned that VS110 until a year ago btw. And I now own a Ref 6 and Ref 150SE. So this meaningless answer is like throwing a dart with a blindfold on after having been spun around like a game of the pin the tail on the donkey. How do you know you will like vinyl? What's you game plan if you don't? If you have to ask such a broad question on a Board like this, how in heck do you plan to set it up correctly? Turntables mean cartridges and cartridges mean set-up expertise. I started out with a $1000 Pro-Ject RPM-5, then went to a VPI Classic and then to a VPI Prime and now I mostly used a hot-rodded restored Thorens TD124. I like to quote Art Dudley who recently wrote that he has a hard time recommending any current era new turntable. I am going to nonetheless venture out on a blind limb and suggest you consider this; http://www.hifigem.com/polytable.html and a Manley Chinook. Why? Well this table is not the sharpest looking but it delivers on sound basic principles. The Jelco arm on this deck is a classic, proven value. I advise all vinyl neophytes to avoid unipivot arms. That means forget about most VPI models. I own a Manley Steelhead and love it, so I am biased in favor of the Chinook. Let me say it again, answering your question is like answering, "what card am I thinking of?" You need to find someone to set up the table for you. You ought to also try and install a wall mount for your new deck unless you have poured slab floors. Good luck. In fact, since I just invested ten minutes, please PM me or report back publicly in this thread about where you end up. |
Get a new Technics 1200 and a Hana SL mc cartridge. Phono stage can be a Project (very good value for the money). In fact the phono cartridge will have a bigger effect on SQ than any phono stage. Most of which all sound very good indeed! Only a snob would desire an expensive phono stage! Don't you be so foolish to waste thousands on a phono stage! |
Don't skimp on the phono stage. I learned first hand this summer when my failing 25 year old phono amp needed to be replaced. I tried an inexpensive phono stage, gave it weeks to burn-in but the music just seemed to dribble out of it. No dynamic swing, virtually no air around the notes and a small, unrealistic soundstage. After trading that in ($895 unit), I moved up to a ($2300) phono stage. Unbelievable difference. The biggest positive surprise was how it's dynamic headroom minimizes the impact of tics and pops on the music, Surface noise is just less noticeable. I am not saying there aren't very reasonably priced fine sounding units out there, the one I chose just couldn't get it done. |
@roberjerman " Only a snob would desire an expensive phono stage! Don’t you be so foolish to waste thousands on a phono stage!" That’s a ridiculous statement! |
"roberjerman1,274 posts09-03-2018 8:10am. ... In fact the phono cartridge will have a bigger effect on SQ than any phono stage. ... Only a snob would desire an expensive phono stage! ... Don’t you be so foolish to waste thousands on a phono stage!" Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just don’t get them confused with facts. |
Jaym759, you're more than welcome. The Jelco arms look dated but they outperform anything in their price range. It boils down to bearing quality, tolerance, construction and ease of adjusting VTA, SRA, VTF, azimuth, and zenith. Don't get me wrong, with a simple cartridge, getting VTA such that the arm tube is parallel with the record surface is going to take care of SRA. Which is why I would recommend you start out with a Denon D103R. For $450 you will get a great starter cartridge with a conical stylus which means great sound without a lot of fuss. Calling it a "starter" cartridge is unfair-it's an amazing cartridge period. Sure it is nothing to look at (true of every piecer of gear I've recommended and true of your VS110 (such a great amp though!) but trust me, once someone sits down and listens to music, no one is looking at their cartridge. So yeah, something like a Lyra Delos or Ortofon A95 is a beauty to look at but you can't see it from your listening chair, they must be set up perfectly due to their stylus shape, and one stray swipe of a finger and you're out $5K! |
A D103R? Really? Why not a REAL cartridge like an AT OC9/II? The 103r can't compete at around the same price. D103 was only EVER an OK cartridge in the 70s. That's the 1970s. It's now a cult cart of sub-mediocre performance. Only after major overhauls by Soundsmith does the cart start to work up to it's original price point. |
Despite Roberjerman's other wild and unfounded assertions, his Hana cartridge recommendation is a very good one - - very goo d performance for money, to be sure. The Technics SL1200 is also a killer good table (and OK arm, too). I use and like my ARC Ref 2SE for phono amplification - - it clearly bested the phono section in my VAC Ren Sig II. |
-1 bpolletti! Just because the venerable 103 was designed back in 1962 doesn't make it a mediocre piece of cr*p! And the venerated Ortofon SPU's are even older! No, the stock 103 sounds fine and will do the job (play records). Upgrades are available (new stylus/cantilever, wood and metal bodies ... ) for far less than the cost of a new "higher end" cartridge! |
1 bpolletti! Just because the venerable 103 was designed back in 1962 doesn't make it a mediocre piece of cr*p! And the venerated Ortofon SPU's are even older! No, the stock 103 sounds fine and will do the job (play records). Upgrades are available (new stylus/cantilever, wood and metal bodies ... ) for far less than the cost of a new "higher end" cartridge!I'm just trying to save someone else from the anguish of my own mistakes. I am 59 and grew up with vinyl in the 70's, got out of vinyl in '84 and then back in around 2008. When I bought the Pro-Ject RPM-5SE, I had no clue what I was doing. I heard crackling that in fact was coming from a defective switch connector in my preamp (due to not using the input selector for so many years-my input was always my CD player) and I thought it had to be a loose or defective cartridge pin connector and I managed to snap off a pin on the factory-provided Blue Point Special. Pan forward to my next deck which was a VPI Classic purchased "blind" from Galen Carol Audio who recommended that I buy it from him with a Benz Glider SL and a Moon Audio LP5.3. All good gear though I have moved on mostly. But I abused the crap out of that Benz Glider while oafishly trying to adjust the unipivot arm on that deck. I never got good sound out of the VPI Classic teamed up with the Benz Glider. I watched Fremer's set-up video a dozen times and tried everything I could, and bought a Fozgometer and a test record but I don't think the Benz Glider and the original JMW10.5 arm were a good match and I can say that because I have installed that same Benz Glider (re-tipped by Peter Lederman) in a 12" Reed 3P and it sounds phenomenal. You gotta learn to walk before you can run. You don't need to get fancy/expensive analogue gear to get great sound. You do need to get stuff that matches up well, is foundationally solid, and you need to set it up right. There is not stronger argument for brick and mortar audio stores than setting up a turntable for newbies. And there is no stronger argument for an easily adjustable tonearm than the fact that newbies need to learn by doing. That VPI JMW10.5 had tiny recessed allen key grub screws that were awkward to access and needed to be loosened and than re-tightened for VTA and the idea of adjusting azimuth by turning the egg-shaped counterweight or trying to rotate the lateral counterweight ring all the while seeing your arm canted over to one side when your Fozgometer showed balanced cross-talk was a horrendous experience. I still have a VPI Prime with 3D arm and by then the arm became a bit easier to adjust by design and by virtue of my experience, but this is why I say stay away from VPI unipivots as your first decent deck. Unless you are going to have a local pro set it up for you. And after this very long screed let me say this; that Gem Dandy Polytable properly set up with a Denon D103R and a Manley Chinook can sound glorious-far better than a VPI Avenger with Lyra Delos and Herron Audio VTPH-2A that is NOT optimally set-up and the margin between "properly set-up" and not "properly set-up" gets finer and finer as you move up the ladder. |
Regarding the phono section: A good phono section will reduce the number of ticks and pops you hear without curtailing bandwidth. An excellent turntable to consider is the Technics SL1200G. IMO its weakness is its arm, but its arm is competitive with many high end audio tonearms. But if you want to put a better arm on it, it can be done. The 'table part is very nearly state of the art- the platter is damped, the plinth is rigid and damped, and the platter is one of the most speed stable made anywhere at any price. Regarding arms and cartridges: the ability of the arm to track the cartridge is far more important than the choice of cartridge! So pay attention to that compatibility aspect and you will be rewarded. |
Again thanks to ALL of you for responding to my question. I am getting quite an education and hopefully make some better choices going forward. I will be having help setting up the table from a local pro and learn more from him so that I can manage future tweaks better. I will post my choices for follow up. |
Dear @jaym759: The analog alternative is the more imperfect way to listen MUSIC and due to those inherent medium imperfections is way hard task to achieve good quality performance. The issue is not to have a some one that help in the overall analog rig set up but that each audiophile must be learn by his self and in that learning time we have more falls down experiences than success. That's means not only time consuming but means spend higher money too. It is way easy for a newcomer to make several mistakes especially in the begining like you because you really don't have any knowledge level on the whole subject that can help you to evaluate in the rigth way all the advises/recomendations/opinions coming from other analog audiophiles/audio distributors/reviewers/manufacturers and the like. Today the digital alternative puts any one nearer and truer to the recording and from live MUSIC. I'm a MUSIC lover with over 7K LPs but I accept the digital superiority at today technology levels and enjoy it too. If you want to go ahed is up to you. The TT/tonearm advise @fsonicsmith gave you is really good. Read here about: http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/gem-dandy-polytable/?page=3 G. Merril is a very well regarded designer and Jelco is a manufacturer that between other makes tonearms for Ortofon, Audioquest, Koetsu ( vintge. ) Sumiko. Jelco is not a TT manufacturer rookie " as many gentlemans here could think. In the other side the worst place to use tube technology is precisely in a phono stage nd it cn be proved easily. Forgeret biased tube lovers or biased tube mnufacturers. If you goes for tube units this will be your first huge mistake. For years I used it, not any more and for very good reasons. Btw, how many LPs already own? which are your MUSIC/audio priorities through your system.? what are you looking to achieve? R. |
You have a REF 3 pre-amp and a 110 amp. All from Audio Research. I would investigate a used Ph6, Ph8, REF 2SE or 2 phono stage. They would match very well with your existing gear and sound great. The turntable, arm and cartridge on the other hand. Well, that's a different story. Hard choices and totally dependent on what your budget is. But remember, there are a lot of very nice used turntable/arm combinations out there. enjoy |
Don't deny yourself the beautiful sonics available from great LPs on a well set up rig. You mentioned earlier that you would have a local expert set up the table. Absolutely!! Much more important than the analog gear you buy is the expert set up of that rig. It's all about the correct geometry between the LP and the cartridge! Best. |
Ralph always says direct drive Technics, that's his preference, which is fine. But there are other turntables, you must audition. Simon Yorke, SME and Nottingham are worth listening to. Or maybe you can get Walker, we don't know. Generally speaking, spend at least twice as much on phono stage than on cartridge. |
Michael Fremer does not like this Technics much, though he didn't exactly call it a stupid turntable. That's the common problem with direct drive turntables. Read. https://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-direct-drive-sl-1200g-turntable |
Dear @last_lemming @jaym759: Other gentleman mentioned Ayre phono stage and I can add SimsAudio but you mentioned Parasound JC3 ( all these 3 manufacturer designs are SS units and better than any tube unit no matter what. ). and posted: """ No a super high end name but there’s a lot to the unit. "" well the JC in the model are the designer name ( all the Parasound/Halo units are designe by him. ) letters that's no one less that the great John Curl a true hystorical icon in the audio industry from many years. Here we can read about: https://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/640/index.html http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/the-vendetta-scp-2-phono-stage/ in those times this one was my dream for a phonolinepreamp but I never had the kind of money to buy it but I had the rare opportunity to listen this 3 chasis JC top design that as his Vendetta and his BlowTorch designs outperforms any today tube units and many today top and very expensive SS designs: http://www.topclassaudio.com/web/eng/used_product_details.jsp?gid=7960 So you have a unit with a " super high end design ", nothing less. Of course Parasound builded at a price point parts. Btw, this is the audio system that Michael Fremer used in those times and we can see tubes everywhere on it as almost every famous reviewers of the time: """ Sidebar: Michael Fremer's Associated Equipment LP Source: VPI TNT Mk.3 turntable; Transfiguration Temper, Lyra Parnassus DC, AudioQuest Fe5, Grado Reference, Goldring Excel phono cartridges. the Ayre/Adcom there were under review. From some years now he mainly uses SS electronics, he learned. Obviously that he is a very well regarded reviewer and made and makes reviews on everything of technologies including tubes but the electronics he bougth and are the main ones comes from Dartzeel full SS designs. Look at this music lover and audiophile audio system he owns. Can you see any tube down there?. Of course not because MUSIC deserves the best for it be honored: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/615 Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
If you have no Lp's now, why go into analog, the learning curve is very slow.The vinyl-deny-ers just don't get it. It's not about convenience or practicality. It's about getting involved. You have to hunt for good records and when you find them, you can touch them and see them and store them tangibly. The turntable is a simple mechanical device that you can touch, adjust, and understand. All of this goes away with digital. Back on topic, the OP ought to understand that turntables, phono stages, and cartridges all have flavors. So does the wiring in the tonearm and the phono cable from tonearm to phono stage if applicable (my Reed 3P has one continuous cable from cartridge pins to phono stage-the way all tonearms ought to be :-) ) OP-my suggestion of Gem Dandy Polytable with Jelco arm, Chinook phono stage, and Denon D103R will render rich tone like a Rembrandt painting. Many vinyl rigs that aim for retrieving detail are just not particularly euphonic or fun to listen to. I very much appreciate Raul's affirmation of my gear recommendation but his tagline of "play music and not distortions" is divorced from reality. There is no getting away from distortion. It must be instead accommodated in your favor. If you ignore every other thing I say, fine, but please don't ignore my suggestion that your first new table needs to have an arm that can be easily adjusted in the real world by which I mean on your equipment rack without the necessity of removing it to some laboratory type setting ;- ) The purpose of having a pro set up your table the first time is so that you can hear first-hand how good your deck can sound providing you a reference point but you don't want to end up being in a position where you are helpless without the pro each time your deck no longer sounds up to par. Go Into this with eyes wide open that set and forget does not apply to vinyl. The suspension that holds the cantilever in placer changes with time. You need to be able to detect it and adjust accordingly. If that is not satisfactory, than the quote above does apply validly to you. |
Dear @fsonicsmith : ""
music and not distortions" is divorced from reality. There is no getting away from distortion. """ agree, we can't avoid several kind of room/system distortions. The target is: first learn to identify what is distortion from the signal we are listening it this is: what in reality is not part of the audio recorded signal but developed distortions. Second how to avoid the development of those distortions or at least to put at minimum through room/system changes but before this " actions " we need to identify where is the source of those different kind of distortions. Mny times trying to eliminte kind of distortion the chnges we did it strts to develps nother kind of distortion . The issue here is that always exist trade-offs and we have to decide wich trade-off makes less harm to the music signal. R. |
Raul, my friend, you seem to forget that their is distortion introduced by every microphone known to mankind, but every piece of the recording chain, by every piece of the playback chain, by every amplifier in particular) known to mankind, by every tonearm and phono cartridge known to mankind, by every loudspeaker known to mankind. Even the concept of recording and playing back in stereo rather than mono introduces distortion. My point is to play the system and play the room. Does a solo female singer sound true to size, tone, timbre, and organic or does she sound like a bad hologram? Does piano sound suitably plunky, woody, and with tinkle or does it sound artificial? These are good starting points. |
Dear @fsonicsmith : I know all what you posted but that's not exactly my point. We can't do nothing about the overall recording proccess. Where can we mantain any kind of distortions at minimum? only at room/system playback proccess and to mantain distortions at minimum we have to learn all those points I posted . This is my target: m achieve it then I will be nearer to the recording. Easy to say and very complex to achieve that target. Name of the game here?: just knowledge level at two different " stages " MUSIC ( live music. ) and reproduced sound additional we have to have the rigth developed skills to do it. The learning proccess is and takes a long long time ( years. ) and that proccess is the key the true key for we can be nearer to the recording. Several gentlemans in this and in other internet forums are " against " my posts and try even to hit me because all of them just can't understand where resides where is the foundation true and real foundation of my posts and can't understand it because my targets and learning proccess is way diofferent from the ones they have. Many of them think that are music lovers and audiophiles but many of them unknow how live instruments ( solo or in an orchestra. ) performs at near seat position ( 2-3m. ). The words used for audiophuiles as: soundstage, lush, softness, inner detal, laywering, deep and the like just does not exist in a live event with any kind of instruments or orchestras. MUSUIC performs in way different mode but things are that normally recording microphones positions are at near field not at 25m-40m. All my audio item evaluations are made it at near field seat position in my room/audio system and if necessary through headphones too. bpolleti said I'm against tube technology when in reality I'm not per sé. Things are that I'm in favor of MUSIC and tubes is for tube lovers but not for true MUSIC lovers and certainly not for MUSIC sound reproduction in any room/audio system. All the arguments that a tube lover think he has are totally wrong because has no true/real foundation on those targets I mentioned. In reality they like that hardware but not real MUSIC. Sooner or latter some of them will learn ( as I did it. ) or maybe never. I don't care about because is not my problem it's not me whom has to live for ever in the " mistake ". Why then things seems for every one that I really care on tubes?: because what I care about in the same manner that all those tube lovers spread their mistakes I just tell them not only that all ( including reviewers, distributors and manufacturers of that technology. ) is that them are totally wrong but I tell them why are wrong. Tube technology goes always against MUSIC in the worst manner we can think in the playback overall proccess in any home room/audio system. Problem with them is that always tell the one is wrong is me but never ever explain with precision why I'm wrong. Till today no where internet no one proved I'm wrong. I really wish many gentlemans can do it because I always said and say: every single day is a learning day. No, I'm not biased through SS technology. I repeat: I'm biased in favor always to the MUSIC and from some years now things are that well designed full SS electronics is the only true way to go to honor the MUSIC that's an ART. Normally audio distributors, manufacturers and even reviewers are moved by $$$$$$ and how to takes the higher they can from us customers. In the other side what moves to us customers and true audiophiles: only our whole knowledge levels and ignorance levels that we all have. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
This is fantastic, getting so much info. While I am finding fsonicsmith particularly helpful, all responses are greatly appreciated and helpful...I have a lot to learn but this discussion is increasing my appetite for making choices that will hopefully enhance my listening pleasure. Again thanks to All of you and more info is invaluable to me. |
Pear Audio turntables/tonearms deserve consideration as well. Point is that turntables of the same level do not sound identical at all. We all have preferences. Judging by your choice of speakers and electronics, your taste is not far from mine. I prefer Nottingham/Pear Audio to colder sounding even if slightly higher resolving turntables, in other words on warmer and a little darker side of neutral. All good British tables are dynamic enough. |
@inna Ralph always says direct drive Technics, that's his preference, which is fine.We've been making a belt drive machine for about 20 years. It is very neutral but the Technics is less expensive and I think its a better machine and even includes a tone arm! I make money on the sales of our turntable, but I don't think I'll be selling any since the advent of the new Technics. |
@bpoletti : "" You are EXTREMELY BIASED toward SS... "", agree and I’m biased because from some years now is the only real/true alternative to achieve the targets I posted here. Period. " and have deep financial interests in the products you promote. " that is totally untrue and a lie. I promote or have for sale nothing of my electronics or similar items. So, I have not any financial interests other than fulfill my home room/system targets that can honor the MUSIC needs. ThAt’s all. Got it? Instead trying to attack me and only for a " change/fun " why don’t post a true contribution for all of us can improve our today system quality level performance by wide margin? R. |
