Learsfool, it's good to hear from you, constructive criticism is always welcomed, and it's coming at just the right time.
We are in the process of making this a better thread, and the fact that it has attracted highly esteemed posters such as yourself, speaks volumes for the thread.
When posters are honest, and truly believe whatever they have posted, even if it's wrong, that's a good post.
In regard to why we don't get new members, one of the reasons is the fact that people here are more interested in equipment than music.
While there are other reasons that I don't know, I would rather have high quality, than high quantity.
Enjoy the music.
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Regardless as to how many different ways that it's played, the one that was made at the "Pershing" is the definitive "Poinciana", at least it's my favorite. No matter how many times he redoes things, the first one is the best, according to me.
Records and live appearances are different to the point, the live audience probably wants to hear his best hits redone, while as a record enthusiast, I want something new, but I would not have discovered that if I hadn't focused on his "discography".
Enjoy the music.
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Learsfool, I would like for you to post your favorite classical music that features your instrument.
Thank you.
Enjoy the music.
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The 58 Sessions were more to my liking; nothing is more beautiful than this "On Green Dolphin Street". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrVnm66joQkEach artist's solo takes me sailing off on a cloud. A lady fan of Miles introduced me to this LP; I like recalling sweet memories. There was a club that played this on a big outside speaker to drum up business, and I can recall how sweet Lucky Thompson's solo sounded, reverberating off the buildings on a foggy or misty night. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMW3RloxEyAEnjoy the music. |
"What the holy smoly is this?" is what I thought when I put it on the turntable; however, had I known what it was supposed to be, I might not have taken it back to the record store.
Regardless how some rave about it, I can still live without it. I guarantee he did not carry one original fan along on that trip.
Miles was Miles; what else can you say?
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I knew a guy who went to school with Miles, and had every record he had ever recorded as late as 66; he was an original fan. I'll bet $2.00 to a donut, that he didn't like that record.
That was the worst selling record Miles ever put out, his career took a big dip after that record. The only people who got it, were those who came on the scene long after that record was released.
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For years and years Miles made a lot of beautiful, and exciting music that I bought and liked. This went on until his obsession with "different" led him to strange audio lands; they were too different for me anyway. "Different", but beautiful is how I would describe Miles and Gil Evans; this is a combination that has received very little discussion. No jazz musician that I know of has attracted as many female fans as Miles Davis; Chet Baker maybe, but when I listen to the beautiful arrangements that he made with Gil Evans, that also seemed to be in the collection of every female jazz fan I knew, I realize he (his music) had an undeniable mystique for the ladies that I don't think has been discussed. Since we aren't ladies, we can only speculate, but it seems to me this music has a certain feminine flow. Where do we begin? Why don't we try "Miles Ahead"; this album was released in 57, but was a big seller through the the early 60's for sure. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlVrh8t1DE4This music flows like a cool breeze on a hot summer night. How about "Porgy and Bess"; "It Ain't Necessarily So" ; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-EgyUcHSSQ"Sketches Of Spain" made me want to go to a Bull fight; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHEzyqhDASw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qi1hSK5NWoFor many years Miles made albums that would be found in every aficionados collection, as well as music collectors who were not specifically into jazz; yes, we all enjoyed the music that Miles made for many years. |
I would like to make a clarification; ladies seemed to be into Chet Baker the musician, while with Miles, it was his music, and his music alone that appealed to so many ladies; that's something I noticed when visiting or talking to female jazz fans.
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Frogman, it does absolutely no good to make a clarification with you; I stated this had absolutely nothing to do with "Miles the person", but only with his music; which albums they owned.
They didn't keep up with what Miles was doing, only which album was doing what? Was it into something or not; there were never any conversations about what Miles was doing. I certainly didn't know or care what Miles was doing at that time.
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Frogman, you're right, I should never respond before I wake up.
Hey Rok! tell us you're in the land of the living; somebody misses you. |
Miles had everything and blew it overnight, "literally". He had the love of his life, and ran her away with his insane jealousy. Just like in chess, when the Queen falls, it's game over because every thing becomes an instant mess. |
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Lately it seems that the bad boys are becoming the Saber toothed tiger.
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After so much discussion about Lee Morgan, I decided to focus exclusively on Mr. Morgan. You are known by the company you keep, and no where is that truer than when you decide to make an album; Lee Morgan was always surrounded with headliners.
"Since I Fell For You" has long been one of my favorite songs going all the way back to "Lenny Welch";
"When you love me, and then you snub me.
But what can I do, I'm still in love with you." Been there done that, hope to God I never do it again.
Lee Morgan had me crying in my beer all over again; he could tell a story on that trumpet of his like nobody else.
My listening room is the den, which has a fireplace in the shape of a large arch; I have tiny Christmas lights around that large arch, which functions as the center of the sound stage; since I don't have to please anyone but me, it's Christmas all year round. The musicians emanate from the fireplace; this room is my exclusive domain. On this particular evening I settled down for some serious evaluation of "Mr. Lee Morgan".
"A Night In Tunisia" is a tune recorded by all the heavyweights, and when one places in the top 5, it has to be "dynomite". Lee Morgan's sustained riffs on that tune has not been exceeded by any that I've heard, plus Pepper Adams baritone slicing and riffing right back at Lee's trumpet is the contrast required for maintaining the intensity of this tune. Lee closes it out by riffing like he's in outer space, no body could blow notes that fast, and that clear; which is why so many chose him as the best trumpet ever.
"I'm a Fool To Want You" is one of those ballads with a lot of slow burning emotion; that's Clifford Browns territory. While no one can take Cliffords crown, Lee comes close.
"I Remember Clifford", I don't think anyone does this one as well as Lee Morgan.
My night with several Lee Morgan albums was sustained without one let down. I'm awfully "persnickety" and most of the albums in my collection will have a let down, but Lee Morgan's albums were grade "A" in sustainabilty, meaning they didn't have any dropouts, they kept you on a high level of enjoyment.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, I just received Ahmads album with Othello on steel drums; it was recorded in 98, and I saw them in Chicago in the early 80's, and I was hoping to duplicate that experience. Although this CD doesn't even come close to that night in Chicago, it's OK; but I don't want a CD that's just OK, all of those OK CD's are going on the market.
You must take into consideration that both men were approximately 20 years younger, and they were on fire in Chicago. As we get older we lose whatever we had when we were younger, and musicians are no different; that's why Ahmad's best work is behind him, but I'm sure he's still very entertaining on a live set.
Mary Lou Williams is the only artist I can think of who seemed to retain every thing all the way up to the end.
Enjoy the music.
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I bought that record "Sama Layuca" about the time it came out, and proceeded to play it to death.
I have observed a regrettable fact; when your favorite sideman is the leader on a record, it doesn't come out as well as you would expect; even when he has top personnel with him.
"Benny Golson and the Philadelphians" with Lee Morgan, Ray Bryant, Percy Heath on Bass, and Philly Joe Jones on drums; has to be a good record; right? But it's just OK.
If Blakey had led the same group of men, it would have been out of sight. My point is; you got leaders and followers, when they switch positions, things just don't work out as well.
Another example is Pepper Adams, the great baritone sax man, who was dynamite with Mingus or Donald Byrd; doesn't come off as well when he's the leader. Don't know why not, such is life.
Enjoy the music.
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As Gerry Mulligan said he does not think about where jazz is going but he doesn't think much of "niche" jazz, and free jazz is chaotic (noise).
As far as where jazz is going, he was too concerned with where he was going to think about that.
Free jazz is "noise" in my opinion, no matter who was blowing it, and that includes JC; Miles said more or less the same thing.
"West Coast" jazz doesn't get any better than the "Gerry Mulligan Quartet".
Enjoy the music.
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Happy New Year to you Rok, and I hope your wish comes true.
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Happy New Year to all the aficionados, and may you enjoy the music even more this year than you did last year.
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I discovered Stacey Kent quite by accident, and was totally captivated by her, the song, and the music. The song was "Close Your Eyes", and when I heard the words, I wanted to close my eyes, while leaning on Stacey Kent's shoulder. That's when you know the vocalist has something very special; when she can pull you into the song, and you are with her body and soul. If you have a vivid imagination, you can see yourself next to her living out the words to the song. Stacey Kent has the power to cast her spell on all who listen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kThnXY2yaZwEnjoy the music. |
Dizzy Gilespie had a very long and interesting career in jazz, and not for one single moment did he lose me in regard to the music he was playing.
I think it would be interesting to compare Miles and Diz; what do you guys say?
Miles Dewey Davis III (May 26, 1926 – September 28, 1991) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, and composer. He is among the most influential and acclaimed figures in the history of jazz and 20th century music. Davis adopted a variety of musical directions in his five-decade career which kept him at t
John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie (/ɡᵻˈlɛspi/; October 21, 1917 – January 6, 1993) was an American jazz trumpeter, bandleader, composer, and singer.[1]
AllMusic's Scott Yanow wrote, "Dizzy Gillespie's contributions to jazz were huge. One of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time, Gillespie was such a complex player that his contemporaries ended up copying Miles Davis and Fats Navarro instead, and it was not until Jon Faddis's emergence in the 1970s that Dizzy's style was successfully recreated [....] Arguably Gillespie is remembered, by both critics and fans alike, as one of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time.
I think we could learn a lot through this exercise; especially since we have a resident musician; what do you say?
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Acman, glad you liked it; she really makes a song come to life, and the music blends in so perfectly, I could listen to her all night. I'm listening to "Isn't This A Lovely Day", and I can hear what I just stated above. It's for sure I'm going to have to follow up on Stacey Kent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K9vT6wvfSc&list=RD9K9vT6wvfSc#t=130I like this French song and I don't even speak the language. Enjoy the music. |
Stacey Kent is married to British tenor saxophonist Jim Tomlinson. Apparently her and Mr. Jim Tomlinson have been making beautiful music on and off the set. I'm going to follow through on her discography.
Enjoy the music.
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Acman, here's the "Wikipedia" link on Stacey Kent; it makes for an easy reference in regard to her "Discopgraphy" and almost every thing else of importance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stacey_KentEnjoy the music. |
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The tune starts out real nice with piano and bass, plus guitar, but it could do without the brass; that takes it out of a mellow groove, and puts it somewhere else.
I could enjoy the tune "Just Friends", without the brass.
I don't know if you remember JATP, but they would have Miles, Bird, Rollins and a bunch of other stars on stage making something less than the best music, but that didn't matter because the people came to see all these stars on the stage together; too much is worse than not enough.
The brass fit the music better on the last tune.
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**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. **** I refuse to acknowledge that comment for reasons that should be quite apparent. Frogman, there were two Dizzy Gillespie's; one was a sort of musical ambassador who presented what that audience expected; a "bebop" entertainer. There was also another musician who was more serious about "his" music, meaning music he was creating as time went by. I have much more of "Dizzy" than just the beginning, he never quit being serious about creating new music that was linear with modern jazz, but not completely off the track; try this as one example; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj1j4mN7OT0He reworks this tune in numerous boss ways, the same as "Night In Tunisia" is reworked. Here he is on the ambassador track doing what he was famous for doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRGMHfKrEMiles went completely out of the bounds of what could be called jazz, but since it was Miles doing it, his new fans called it jazz, but his original fans didn't agree. I can't corroborate this because I talked to some of his original fans who were mentioned in his book. What we laughed and talked about personally, they would not admit publicly, but Miles trolley jumped the jazz track. We have too many fundamental disagreements in regard to the music to begin a comparison of those two; consequently we'll have to debate something else. Enjoy the music. PS I never heard Lee Morgan on "Blue Train" before now, it was all just part of the music, but now Lee Morgan is all I hear. |
**** ....when we look at jazz, unless we accept the premise that it encompasses more than bebop and hard bop, then there is no need for further discussion. ****
That statement implies that I'm so narrow minded, I can only accept "bebop" and "hard bop" as jazz. If that was the case, there would be no need for further discussion.
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"I spent my first week in New York looking for Bird and Dizzy. Juilliard was only a smokescreen, a stopover, a pretense I used to put me close to being around Bird and Diz."
Those were Miles very own words; Diz didn't go to St. Louis looking for Miles, he came to New York looking for Bird and Diz; that was from the start, which tells a lot.
Dizzy G, was the ultimate "jazz musician" who could innovate like nobody you ever heard; that's how he was able to consistently play "jazz" that sounded fresh and brand new from the 40's until his death. He never sounded "stereotypical", meaning clinging to certain riffs that he repeated, but each time he reworked his old tunes until they sounded new.
While Diz never left the "jazz compound" he pushed and re-invented his music in such a way that it was always new and fresh.
Throughout most of my "jazz life" I was equally a Diz and Miles fan; that is until Miles trolley jumped the tracks, and I no longer liked his music. Trying to quantify Miles new music would give me a a "brain-ache", therefore I won't, but leave it at the fact I could live without it.
Enjoy the music.
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Schubert, you are the jerk going in a circle. |
Dizzy might have wasted air, but I don't believe in wasting words.
" Again, this is not to say that he couldn't play the trumpet. But it is to say that he was not a particularly good trumpet player, especially as we are comparing him to other professional players". So say's the "Learsfool".
That was the umpteenth bogus "Jazz" statement made by "Learsfool"- he was a fantastic musician, but these are not the same.
After that, he gets even more bogus, and ends his whole "bogus summation" with "I hope this all makes sense". Yes it does all make sense; it makes "Frog sense".
Learsfool, are you sure your on the right thread; this is "Jazz For Aficionados".
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Dizzy has been the "only" jazz musician who has not had a "dropout"; meaning an album I could quite well live without since the first time I heard him. The great "Bird" has blown notes that would have been best left in his horn. (The great "Bird" might have needed a quick fix, while Diz never got close to the stuff) Plus, even the best jazz musicians have had short dry spells, but not Diz; that is according to my taste. I don't know how many versions of "Kush" he has recorded; sort of like Monk, and "Round Midnight"; the same can be said for "Diz" and "Night In Tunisia"; no matter which one, I like them all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xncznvkB7S8The recording quality on this "Kush" isn't the best, but the music is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRPlKDuRHHoEnjoy the music. |
Frogman, you and Schubert should both read the thread title together, maybe it will soak in; it's not titled "Classical Music For Aficionados", it's not titled "Music for Musician Aficionados"; it's not titled; thread for "Writing Aficionados"; it's titled "Jazz For Aficionados" and all others can get lost; especially when they attempt to speak with authority.
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Frogman, you are always trying to "discombobulate" this "Miles" with that Miles, and the other Miles in order to get "Your" Miles on page 1, but it wont work; we all know when Miles Trolley jumped the tracks, and it just kept on going until it was way out in the middle of the cornfield.
Now you think you can "nit pick" Diz somehow or another to show where Miles was better, but it won't work, not until "Donkeys fly"; seen any flying donkeys lately?
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Frogman, your allegations against me have revolved around the same thing and they are always true, and first I'll reveal why they are true.
When I began this thread, "Jazz For Aficionados" sounded like a nice title; now I are an "Aficionado" (that was a bit of humor). When one can hear into the center of the soul of the music we call jazz, that is when one is an "Aficionado". I'll give you a very specific example. "Heavy Soul" is an album that has been out since 63; that's when I bought it.
The album didn't get much mention initially, but like a snowball rolling down a hill, it gathered more flakes of snow, and now it's quite prominent among "Aficionados"; oh! there's that word again.
When I heard the depths of emotion emanating from all the musicians on that album, I knew they were saying something that went beyond the music.
"Grant Green", you remember him, his album "Idle Moments" didn't become popular until long after it was out. I heard the often spoke about soul in Joe Henderson's solo on "Idle Moments" long before others. I could go on and on, but now I think you are getting my drift as to why I am considered an "Aficionado".
Although this does not apply to our current debate, it does apply to the debate that is raging underneath.
Enjoy the music.
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I know you noticed the approving looks Dizzy gave Arturo; now i know where I can get my Dizzy fix.
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But, it seems that 'we' are going in circles here, with all that 'new' vs 'old' jazz, with or without 'soul'.
Alex, could you take your time and elaborate on that. I don't think we are going in circles, I think we are getting closer to defining a very complex music.
From my point of view, music is affected by so many things other than music, which have currently gone astray, that music currently is not as good as in the past. While jazz might be most affected, if what I say is true, other genres would also be affected.
"Soul" is a word that exists in many languages, and that's the way it is used in jazz, which differentiates it from "Soul Music".
It would be impossible to describe the music of "Bobby Timmons" without the use of the word "Soul".
Jazz is an evolving music; however, I don't think it's evolving into "Doo Bop", or even in that direction.
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Woody Shaw is an artist I'm not as familiar with, as I would like to be. There were so many top notch jazz artists at one time, that I will have to go back, and pick up on those I missed.
I checked his "Bio" and it's no wonder he reminded me so much of "Diz"; his mother was from the same home town, and it's apparent he crossed paths with Diz a lot. When I buy Woody Shaw, I can get young Diz with good recording quality.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, you are a politician posing as musician; " Seems to me that a far more productive and insightful approach would be to try and understand the difference between "trumpet player" and "musician" as Learsfool correctly stressed."
Why don't you and Learsfool take that route, I'm concerned with the music coming out of the speakers, whether Diz is puffed up like a frog matters not .
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Frogman, if only you were as good an Aficionado, as you are a politician; it seems you have your devotees convinced on that Miles thing, but not Acman.
Now if Miles went to New York looking for Bird and Diz? Who made Miles?
Frogman, have you ever heard the term "Modern Jazz"; what musicians is that most accredited to; can you say Bird, Diz , and Monk.
If you want to know who is the better musician, I suggest you read Miles "Autobiography".
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Yes Rok, that was the lady that Phil Woods married.
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Acman, I must have that album; it was the last by the greatest small group in that era. Clifford Brown - trumpet Sonny Rollins – tenor saxophone Richie Powell – piano, celesta George Morrow – double bass Max Roach – drums The album was identified by Scott Yanow in his Allmusic essay "Hard Bop" as one of the 17 Essential Hard Bop Recordings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Brown_and_Max_Roach_at_Basin_StreetThis is the album that was my major introduction to jazz. My cousin in Chicago had an extensive jazz collection, and "Delilah" was my favorite cut on this LP in 56 when I was there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt_fmhtePocClifford Brown – trumpet Harold Land – tenor saxophone George Morrow – bass Richie Powell – piano Max Roach – drums The only difference is tenor sax man Harold Land as opposed to Sonny Rollins; since I liked both, I must have both. Enjoy the music. |
