Pryso, some people have the ability to have a pleasant positive conversation, while others don't; some people don't even know the subject of the conversation.
I want you to know that it has been a pleasure discussing various aspects of the jazz greats, and some of their idiosyncrasies as well; I find you extremely knowledgeable about our favorite artists.
Awhile back, I posted links to "Caravan" with what I thought was a humorous twist about actually going on a caravan.
After that I changed the subject to "nicknames" or monikers; Bingo!, you got it right both times, and responded intelligently.
Since it's a waste of time to go back over what has transpired, I wont.
No Pryso, no one else even responded to any one of the three links I put up on "Caravan".
That link you put up is one of the best "hard-bop" examples of the tune.
This is the line-up on that link.
Art Blakey - drums
Freddie Hubbard - trumpet
Curtis Fuller - trombone
Wayne Shorter - tenor saxophone
Cedar Walton - piano
Reggie Workman - bass
Those royalty titles are humorous when you think about them; King, Queen, Duke, Duchess....
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Baby Face Willette created all new music that I was fortunate enough to hear just before his illness and death.
I had a discussion with another professional keyboard player, and I was telling him how good "Face" was.
"He was good, but he wasn't that good", was his response.
When I went to the record store searching for this "new music", that I assumed Face had recorded, it wasn't to be found; therefore, I had to settle for "He was good, but he wasn't that good".
If Face had gotten this music I heard live recorded, it would have put him at a different level,and given him a lot much more recognition.
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No that's not true, he died in Chicago with his family. I last saw him in the Fall of 69, and he wasn't well, although his music was fantastic when he was able to play.
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"Spyro Gyra", Morning Dance has been in my collection since it came out; as a matter of fact, I only have it on record.
Whether or not it's jazz doesn't really matter; it's a lot better than some current music that is considered jazz.
Enjoy the music.
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"Soul", what is it? Some of the most brilliant minds have tried to define it without success. Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel spent his entire life writing about the philosophy of soul; The Phenomenology of Spirit was the name of his most famous book. When the uneducated refer to "soul", they are speaking of the same thing that Hegel spent his life studying, and writing about. I find that point of contrast quite fascinating. "Ray Charles got soul"; nobody in his right mind will argue with that statement. "Ray Charles can play jazz". "Huh"! might be the response from many people. Those who are not "Jazz aficionados" might find the two words, soul and jazz to be incongruous; that's because they think of "soul music", which is light years away from jazz; but moving right along to "Brother Ray" and jazz, his jazz got plenty plenty soul. The top example of this is "Blue Funk"; that's on a LP titled "Soul Brothers", featuring Brother Ray, and Milt Jackson plus all the other "Soul Brothers" that make this music; the word can not be overused when discussing this album. "Blue Funk" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnOY5LWrWIEnjoy the music. |
My position in music is quite simple, "Everybody is right" because music is so "subjective". With a stance like that, what is there to argue about?
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Pryso, I bought "Bean Bags" probably in 61, naturally the album cover is stuck in my mind; bags of various kinds of beans. "Bags" is Milt Jackson, and "Beans" is Coleman Hawkins; those are the names they were given by jazz enthusiasts before me. I compare being an "aficionado" to being a wine "Connoisseur"; after many long years of diligent listening, we are qualified to pass judgment on what is the best jazz; just as a wine connoisseur is qualified to pass judgment on the best wine. I'm sure the very best grapes and procedures must be implemented for a 5 star wine; and so the very best artists at the top of their game are required for a 5 star jazz album. I have deemed this album 5 star, so if you only see 4 stars, that's wrong. After a lifetime of listening, the Aficionado savors every note on a 5 star album, the same as a wine Connoisseur savors every sip of the very best wine. I would like you to join me in savoring this music; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhgUUe5czxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnTdGw9jDVIBass – Eddie Jones Drums – Connie Kay Guitar – Kenny Burrell Piano – Tommy Flanagan Tenor Saxophone Tenor Sax – Coleman Hawkins Vibraphone Vibraharp – Milt Jackson |
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That must have been quite an experience Schubert; I'm sure she sounded so much better live, all artists I've seen live, sounded exponentially better on stage in front of me.
Not only is she a good vocalist, but she has exquisite jazz backing her; I'll have to add more of her records to my collection.
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Fourwnds, me and my wife went for a long drive on a beautiful fall day, when the colors were at their peak, with another couple, and they played nothing but Kenny G, all the way there and back. I found his music so relaxing, that I nodded off four or five times; his music, and the red. green, and rust colored falling leaves, were like a tranquilizer of the highest magnitude.
In order to enjoy Kenny G., you just have to be at the right time and place.
Enjoy the music.
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Rok, you force me to justify my statement, and that always takes a long story. If you got time to listen, I got time to tell it.
I hung out at this high end emporium so much that some of the customers thought I worked there; especially this one customer who could afford to buy the joint. Since I was always in the small theater where you audition equipment, he always had someone to talk to.
He would come in and ask me questions, and I told him there was only one way to decide, and that was to listen to the stuff. Me and him would sit back in the movie theater seats, while I requested the changes in equipment; like less try this ARC pre-amp with that CJ amp. Since he didn't have his own music, we listened to mine.
That went on for over a week, in which he had decided what he wanted, and brought in his own music. I was comfortably seated, and waiting to hear this dynamite music, when out blasts some kind of British marching music. It was all I could do to get that "What the .... is that" look off my face. I was thinking; he could have bought a wind up Graphenola to hear that; but he wasn't buying CJ and ARC for me.
My point is, his music is my noise, and my music could have been noise to him which he tolerated, and the same could apply to you and me at times; so where is this judge who can say unequivocally which is which?
Enjoy the music.
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In regard to Frogman, how many times do I have to tell him, "I do not want to learn squat in regard to making music". As far as show of hands, I ain't got none; I hope that clears that up; but I don't want him to get off his box for my sake.
Is there anything that I failed to cover?
Enjoy the music.
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There was a time when I bought anything with Miles in the lineup; I also have a lot of "crap" by Miles; old habits die hard.
Back in the LP day when you had to buy in order to hear, I bought a lot of "crap"; that's because buying before you listen is a crap shoot.
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Now is the time for the Frogman to shine, he never met a "Bruhah" that he didn't instantly fall in love with. Unfortunately he has a legitimate reason for not responding to my post on soul; but he picks and chooses to respond to posts like a politician; it depends on who he is in favor of on any given day.
The reason he likes a "Bruhah" is because he can write one of his two page diatribes, that if I'm included, I wont know what I said or didn't say; I wont even recognize myself. It's like seeing myself in one of those fun house mirrors; I look short and squat in one, and like a tall skinny bean pole in the next one.
Now that this has begun, there is no telling when we'll get back to music, so I might as well include a story that I've told a dozen times; it's about a guy who got a degree, or maybe degrees from Juilliard. He was my best friends brother, who lived in New York until he retired and moved to Florida.
Recently, my friend got sick (very ill) and we were trying to contact his brother in Spain, but the hotel said he left there for another hotel; anyway, I never heard him play one note of jazz, but he made a very good living teaching music.
I had two other friends who could really pack the house; they could jam like you would not believe, and neither one of them went to anybody's school. My point is quite simple, when it comes to "hard bop" jazz, either you got it, or you no got it; if they didn't care about school, why should I? Although I must concede that a degree from da big "J" will most certainly command a fat paycheck.
Enjoy the music.
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Old and new jazz is a fallacy; are you referring to the date it was recorded, or the style, or the artists; it can get confusing; especially when you make that classification. But in order to clarify the allegations; "No I don't like new jazz". I don't like new or old jazz that does not sound like squat. Here is some clarinet work featuring two of the most interesting people in jazz who will never go out of style; they will always be modern. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93d_37synC4&t=40sEnjoy the music. |
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Frogman, your "aficionado card" has officially been revoked, also there is a penalty; you have to listen to that music for the rest of your life.
Enjoy the music.
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Ghosthouse, as you so appropriately stated, "You can have jazz without soul, but the best jazz got to have soul", and you can hear it. Believe it or not, not everyone can hear it. I think one must have a built in "soul receptor" in order to hear it; whatever it is that enables one to hear soul, you got it. That's indicated by the music you choose.
"Maiden Voyage" has been one of my favorite tunes since the first time I heard it. It's a memory I shall never forget; I was cruising in the "Deuce" down one of the main boulevards tuned to "Jazz FM", when out of the clear night came this most beautiful tune; it was "Maiden Voyage"; that added to my feeling good sense of being. Before I even knew the title, the music made me feel the calm resolve one must feel when going on a "Maiden Voyage"; as well as the sense of adventure when on a journey into the unknown.
This is at a time when I was young (in my twenties) and any time I was cruising in the "Deuce" down one of the main boulevards in the night, I felt a sense of adventure because I never knew what pleasures I might encounter before the night was over.
Enjoy the music.
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What would a movie be without music? No one can even imagine it; but do you think any of the "movie makers" want to learn anything about how to make music?
Nowhere is it stated that this thread should have anything about making music; it's about listening to, and evaluating "Jazz music". Everything about this thread is spelled out in the beginning; it's about collecting and evaluating "Jazz records", and that is what an "Aficionado" of jazz records does.
If you are an aficionado who wants to teach something about music, I have no objection to that. If there are aficionados who want to learn something about making music, I have no objection to that; however, I do object to including "yours truly".
Enjoy the music.
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Glad you liked it; that was almost a continuation of your Bill Evans link. He was like a chameleon in regard to his ability to change colors to suit the situation.
I just happened to have a funny thought about Miles and Monk. I have a Miles record where I always identify the pianist as Monk, when it's actually Horace Silver. I also have another Miles record where I make the same mistake with another pianist.
The funny part about this thing is that it's due to the fact that Miles was having some kind of rift with Monk, so instead of getting Monk to play the part, he gets whoever the pianist is to play like Monk. "Say Horace, do that plink plink plunk, Monk thing right here."
Enjoy the players.
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This is much to do about nothing; the teacher can continue teaching, and the students can continue learning.
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Glad you liked it; that was almost a continuation of your Bill Evans link. He was like a chameleon in regard to his ability to change colors to suit the situation.
I just happened to have a funny thought about Miles and Monk. I have a Miles record where I always identify the pianist as Monk, when it's actually Horace Silver. I also have another Miles record where I make the same mistake with another pianist.
The funny part about this thing is that it's due to the fact that Miles was having some kind of rift with Monk, so instead of getting Monk to play the part, he gets whoever the pianist is to play like Monk. "Say Horace, do that plink plink plunk, Monk thing right here."
Enjoy the players.
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Alex, here lately, every time you post it adds to the albums I don't have, but must have; the sidemen alone tell the story, Junior Cook, Tina Brooks, and Bobby Timmons are artists I never tire of, and don't have enough of. Each solo on this Kenny Burrell album is a revelation.
It's amazing how many different ways "Caravan" has been worked, from the quirky "Monk", to the straight ahead "Ella".
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Frogman, as you so stated "Ella" set the standard for Caravan.
Although Monk was a little "quirky" as you would expect, it was different and I liked it.
I think your submissions demonstrated all the different ways Caravan could be worked and still sound good.
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The ability to play jazz to me is remarkable, but the ability to hear jazz is just as remarkable. When I began to like jazz more than all other genres of music, I thought I was some kind of freak because everybody else liked some other genre of music; but now I know that it takes a remarkable mind to appreciate jazz, and those are in the minority. Without a doubt, the best jazz was created in the 50's and the 60's. Fortunately for us, there was so much created by different artists, we wont live long enough to hear it all. Today I would like to feature an excellent artist we haven't touched on; "Horace Parlan". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horace_Parlan"Speaking My Piece" featuring the Horace Parlan Quintet; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5A6_8sG6LU |
Pryso, again you hit the nail dead on the head; "Lady Day" for example in reference to Billie Holiday. As you know, the daughters of dukes, marquesses and earls are by courtesy "ladies"; as well as the woman they marry; hence, "Lady Day" has to be a lady of aristocratic bearing. Schubert, here's Casandra Wilson "Caravan" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfW7l5mjpZk |
Pryso, I began with the lyrics that Ella sang to "Caravan" . Night and stars above that shine so bright The myst'ry of their fading light That shines upon our caravan Sleep upon my shoulder as we creep Across the sand so I may keep The mem'ry of our caravan This is so exciting You are so inviting Resting in my arms As I thrill to the magic charms Of you beside me here beneath the blue My dream of love is coming true Within our desert caravan! And took that to my longtime fantasy of actually going on a caravan across the desert, which would be in perfect harmony with Ella's lyrics, to include beautiful exotic babe. Hugh Masekela sings about his memory of joining a caravan in a tiny town in the desert and blazing across the Sahara. That came as close as anything I could picture. In the comments section, Ealorise Holmes says it grabbed at her, and it was most certainly in line with my fantasy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YJCDQ2i5ME It doesn't matter whether or not it's close to jazz, as long as the music puts the caravan fantasy of moving across the Sahara in motion. |
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Caravans were temporary associations of merchants who joined together to make the difficult journey under the leadership of a hired caravan leader using camels rented from the nomadic bedouins who lived in the desert. They often included one thousand to five thousand camels and hundreds of people. Typically, a third of the camels carried food and water for the caravan as a whole. The success of a caravan depended on the caravan leader, who was typically a desert bedouin. Paid either in cash or as shares of the merchants’ profit, a caravan leader was responsible for navigating the route from watering place to watering place, managing relationships with the desert population–who could quickly turn from service providers to marauders–and supervise the daily work of loading, unloading, and feeding the camels. He had a paid team of laborers, scouts, healers and occasionally a Muslim clergyman to provide services, all generally members of the same bedouin tribe as the leader. Oases were the critical element. They were resting places where the caravan could find food, water, and fresh camels–the medieval equivalent of the truck stop. Some of the larger oases held regular markets during the caravan season, which typically ran from October to March in order to avoid the worst heat. The failure of a caravan to reach an oasis could mean disaster not only to the caravan but to those who lived at the oasis and depended on the trans-Saharan trade for their survival. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz0ZHjnsZDE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Kn3JnAtKVUI can only vaguely remember the movies with the caravan and the Sahara as the setting; that's what excited my fantasies of traveling by caravan across the desert, and of course Ella Fitzgerald's song. I think my fantasy has faded; it's gotten lost with the shifting sands. |
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Pryso, that's perfect, I have most of his CD's; they are very ornamental. This is even better than my fantasy, because we have moved into the reality of music in that part of the world, which has stayed close to the original since the time of Jesus. I thank you for your last contribution.
My last contribution is forthcoming, after which this chapter is closed.
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Ghosthouse, Wes Montgomery can never be a dead camel. |
The caravan music ended better than expected; especially when you consider the diverse people found in the Sahara; Bedouins, Tuareg and others who are hired to lead the caravan across the perilous shifting sands where desert marauders may be hiding behind every dune.
I found the desert music to be of sufficient variety, but always in sight of a sand dune; that keeps you in the Sahara and in the caravan, I could even smell the camels, and occasionally hear that obnoxious sound they make.
Since I didn't see one of those things that rides on top of a camel where a sheik could glide along with his honey in his arms, I don't have the part where Ella sings;
This is so exciting
You are so inviting
Resting in my arms
As I thrill to the magic charms
I don't have that part figured out, but this caravan came very close to my fantasy; even concluding with desert marauders, and I thank everyone for their contributions.
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What a coincidence, I just added "Desert Marauders" to my play list the other night.
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Everybody likes bass; including me. No, I do not want a bass woofer, but I have 12inch woofers in a 3 way for speakers. I'm mentioning this because I was listening to Mingus, and really getting off on the sound of his bass, but I am absolutely not a bass freak, I just want whatever the artist deems appropriate.
I would like for you to share with us the best bass solo you ever heard, the genre of the music is irrelevant.
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I use HFI 700 by ultrasone, and I'm quite satisfied. |
Frogman, I had to listen to all your submissions twice because I wasn't impressed the first time, but neither was I impressed the second time.
I clearly stated the most impressive "you ever heard". Since that's what you submitted, you most certainly submitted what was requested, but since I wasn't impressed, and since you are a musician (professional no less) there must have been something wrong with my evaluation.
I accept me as I am. (something I should have done shortly after birth) I don't mean I would still be pooping on myself; some things needed changing, but I would have been in search of who I am, as opposed to being the person somebody else wanted me to be.
Fortunately others will make submissions, and comment on yours. I'm sure the comments will get better for you.
"Have You Met Miss Jones"; I liked that tune, and they qualified as capturing the essence of the tune while producing a very listenable sound, but I missed whatever was special about the bass.
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Frogman, when it comes to "words", you have always been more correct, and I'm not just saying that. The bass solo that most impressed you would have been a better choice of words, because no one can say which is the best when discussing a "subjective" subject. From here on out, it's the solo that most "impressed" anyone; that turns it into the best that person has heard.
I don't think "Bang" is a good player in regard to the violin, but his music is so different, that I like it for that reason. When it comes to checking the timbre of my speakers, I want the sound of the best "classical" violin I can find.
I'm not qualified to evaluate how good a musician is on his instrument from any thing that comes close to an objective point of view. I'm sure this is where the word "objective" would come into play, as regarding Wynton Marsalis's trumpet for example.
Nothing in my evaluations even come close to your last paragraph.
Just before responding, I was evaluating my re-recording of old records to my play-list with a new cartridge; it's like getting a new collection.
I was listening to Joe Henderson's solo on "Idle Moments", and I can tell you this (something you can take to the bank according to me) When Rudy Van Gelder goes "Ga Ga" over anything; if you ain't got it, you had better run out and get it. That solo is one of the most talked about in all of jazz.
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Fortunately others will make submissions, and comment on yours. I'm sure the comments will get better for you.
And so they did! Alex commented on "Edger Meyer", and I did say any genre. That made me take another listen. Actually I thought I heard something on the first listen; a deep dark brooding. (Did anybody tell him that is not a violin, it's supposed to be plucked ha ha)
If you don't mind Frogman, I would appreciate you making three more submissions; apparently I'm not prepared or qualified to evaluate "classical".
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The violin is simple; first of all I'm looking for long sustained notes to judge the timbre of my speakers. In regard to quality; I've been listening to violin since I can remember, on the radio, the movies, and I'm qualified to judge by comparison. As an example; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2NIDtp-LsThis sounds like 'crap' on the computer, must be good violin; here I can compare violin and cello. I'm much more interested in the sound of the violin and the cello than what they're playing. Here are more good sounding violins; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iimxAJPPLYWhen my speakers reproduce the sound of these instruments perfectly, I know all is well in the midrange; I'm not listening for pleasure, but the quality of the timbre; especially on any long sustained parts of the program. Oscar Pettiford "Stardust" is so well played using nothing but bass; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut6LinT-DJIMore coming tommorow......... |
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Schubert, I only use the violins to check the timbre of my speakers, and I doubt if you could get hired as a music critic.
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Dave, what is Frim Fram Sauce? |
