These older Baritone players mentioned above sound wonderful to me. I was born in 1963, grew up in the 70's-80's listening mostly to the rock and roll/metal of that time. I came to like jazz when I turned 40. Since then I have bought over 400 jazz cd's, 2/3 being the older stuff and 1/3 musicians active now. Living just 1 hour from NYC I get to see a lot of the active jazz musicians live. I would have to ask the members posting about Baritone players why James Carter was not mentioned. I have seen him live 5 times, own every cd he recorded, and he is simply incredible on Tenor, Alto, Soprano, and Baritone, which I believe he won best Baritone player a few years ago (not sure which) by Down Beat Magazine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIq1AVOclIE |
@ waldemar^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Kind of Blue has at least 50 different pressings.The link posted above by frogman is a good place to start. I have the 2009 Legacy version and its a pretty good pressing. I also have an sacd hybrid pressed in Japan that's awesome but it is out of print and costly. I would try this one cant go wrong for 26 bucks. Also the legacy is still fairly cheap on Amazon. http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/SICP-10083?s_ssid=e415605ac29e328409 |
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rok2id
What hype?....many jazz aficionados seem to get "stuck" in the 1940-1970 era sax players and never give the up and coming modern players a listen. Sure I agree that Coltrane, Rollins, Dexter Gordon, Sonny Stitt et al were masters of their profession but besides a handful like Lou Donaldson (who I have seen 7 times), Wayne Shorter (2 times) they are all gone now and I don't think Rollins can play live anymore. Give the newbies a listen you may be impressed. |
frogman check out this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFLjQ1I408I was at this show 3 1/2 years back and it was no let down!! JC, Pharoah Sanders and Odean Pope http://www.bluenote.net/newyork/schedule/moreinfo.cgi?id=12258bluesy41 I have seen Redman and Garrett numerous times. One of the perks of living 1 hour from NYC with all them jazz venues. I was backstage with sweet papa Lou Donaldson a few years back shooting the s**t for an hour. Lou loves boxing and baseball so we had plenty to discuss. He said he was at the Polo Grounds when Bobby Thompson hit the "shot heard round the world" |
Lou Donaldson and Dr. Lonnie Smith the Hammond B3 master. By the way Lou is also a good comedian! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6M0Pl-KqELou use to play all the time with Lonnie until about 10 years back. I guess he went on stage here to support the Blue Note 75 years anniversary. I asked him why he don’t gig with Lonnie anymore and he said Lonnie is nuts. I have seen Lonnie 6 times and he never disappoints. |
frogman buy the James Carter cd "Out of Nowhere" its live and the song "Highjack" alone is worth the 25 bucks. Here is a review of the album on Amazon that is spot on about JC's critics:
This is probably a four star CD, but I'm giving it five in order to compensate for all the critics of James Carter who don't seem to know what they are listening to.
This is JAZZ, which, my friends, is built on the tradition of individual virtuosity, spontaneity, free improvisation and group interplay ("blowin'," "chops," "blowin' sessions," "jam sessions," "saxophone duels," "trading fours," etc.) One-upmanship and proving your chops have always been essential aspects of jazz improvisation. Louis Armstrong, Dizzie Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Sonny Rollins, etc., etc., etc. were all show-offs and exhibitionists (and all the other names that are intended as insults to Carter).
Now everyone agrees that Carter is the most talented and virtuosic jazz performer alive today, but somehow this isn't good enough. It's not enough for him to be the Louis Armstrong of our generation, but he has to be the Duke Ellington and Billy Strayhorn as well.
The objection that Carter lacks a unified and coherent style or musical sensibility strikes me as both hollow (lack of unity and coherence IS his style) and, in a postmodern world, dated. And to those who cite a lack of feeling and emotion in his playing, I'm not sure what to say to such vague and subjective criticisms, other than that they might be confused by the wide range of feeling in his playing. |
rok2id
The majority of jazz aficionados like I said up thread are "stuck" in the old days listening to the greats of the 1940 -1970 era. Your statement above simplifies my response.
Name ONE sax player today that you think is as good as the old timers?
Name ONE trumpet player? ONE piano player? ONE bass player? ONE drummer?
I for example have 20 plus Art Blakey cd’s. Jeff Tain Watts, a modern drummer has a total of 5-6 cd’s recorded under his own name. Does that make Watts inferior to Blakey? Times change. Back in the day when jazz was popular the musicians were constantly in the studios recording. Miles Davis once recorded 3 albums in less the a week to finish his contract with Prestige Records to accept an offer from Columbia. Its not quantity that counts but quality.
I have about 50 Coltrane cd’s counting box sets and 75 Miles cd’s counting box sets. Name ONE player in todays time that will ever put out so much material.
No doubt in my mind Trane was the best with Parker,Rollins, Hawkins, Getz, Pepper et al grouped behind Trane in no particular order. But JC could definitely hold his own with many of the old timers including Sonny Stitt, Jackie Mclean, Pharoah Sanders, and yes, even Dexter Gordon.
Likewise Stanley Clarke could hold his own with Charles Mingus on bass to name a modern bass representative.
Jeremy Pelt and Roy Hargrove come very close to Lee Morgan, Freddie Hubbard, Kenny Dorham and Donald Byrd on trumpet
Plus I get to see all of these guys live and is that not the best way to listen to jazz?
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Joe Lovano is another example of an extremely talented modern sax player. I had a chance to see him several times but something always came up. I have a few of his recordings. I saw Eric Alexander at Smoke Jazz Club NYC with Jimmy Cobb on drums about 6 years ago. Cobb signed my Kind of Blue cd plus 2 of his. Alexander was great that night running through some old standards. I have a handful of his recordings too. That night was the old school Cobb who played on KOB with the new school players.
Jazz still lives!!
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By the way, Art Pepper who I mentioned above is one of my favorite "old timers" I have about 20 cd's of his including the legendary comeback box set at the Village Vangaurd. He was tormented by heroin addiction (as were a lot of jazz musicians at one time or another). I highly recommend his autobiography "Straight Life" its one of the best book I have ever read. He came in 2nd to Charlie Parker as downbeat magazines best alto player like 4 years in a row. I believe he even won it one year when Parker was in a rut from the heroin. https://www.amazon.com/Straight-Life-Story-Art-Pepper/dp/0306805588/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&a...He was strung-out as he put it, as he ran out of dope and forgot the photographer was coming that morning but he pulled himself together for the session and the photo on the cover is from that session!! |
"No one thinks ’Bass player’ when Mingus’ name is mentioned.. He was so much more than that. Ellington: Piano player?"
Now if you include the word influential when describing great jazz artist I see your point. Ellington, Mingus, and Thelonious Monk, who you left out (surely you jest) were highly creative and influential composers in which you cannot say that about all jazz musicians. Bird played mostly standards but he was one of the greatest all time with that alto. Duke Ellington had to be creative and influential. He had a club to run and shows to put on every night. Again, different eras. So yes, I understand what you mean but only a small percentage of the "old school" jazz artists were unique, creative, influential, ect. The ratio of standards/originals that most of the older jazz artists had on their albums was the same back then as it is today. As far as jazz artists post 1970 - Do they sell a lot or records? No. They love what they do and keep jazz alive for those few of us that still know what it takes to be jazz artist. They also do way more session work as hired guns then the old timers. It helps them get by.
The most influential musician of all time,with just 4 released studio albums, who was also the best on his instrument was Jimi Hendrix IMHO. But your point was made and taken. |
BTW i've seen Stanley Clarke live and he can play the hell out of the upright bass
But I do agree with rok2id about Charles Mingus. I do not think bass player but I do think composer,& bandleader .
Agreed nsp. I saw the Return to Forever reunion tour about 10 years back with Clarke on bass of course plus 2 more x at the Iridium and Blue Note. He can compose and does have many originals but he is no Charles Mingus when it comes to composing/band leader!
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That bunch of old geezers are awesome!
thanks for sharing!
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nsp- "I second your recommendation of Art Pepper's "Straight Life" autobiography"
His drug addiction antics, although they seem funny when reading the book, were actually very sad. Stan Getz' autobiography also is filled with dope antics. Getz never did any significant jail time like Pepper did. San Quentin and hanging out with gangsters while serving years all in Art Peppers book!
frogman- "Music reflects the time of its creation and in many ways it was a simpler time back then"
Just quoting your last sentence that was an overall excellent post frogman.
pryso- "
My interest in jazz developed during the late '50s and '60s, so no surprise that is what I still love best. At the same time, I try to be open to what fallowed, right up to the present
I did not start listening to jazz until 2002-3, when I turned 40 but of course my first few years I collected the material of all the "old school greats" then started hitting the jazz clubs in NYC and really digged most of the bands I saw so I like the old and new equally.
bluesy41-"but that doesn’t mean that I don’t feel that my brother Christian McBride isnt the greatest upright bass player I’ve ever heard.
I saw McBride once I believe he was playing bass at a Jeff tain Watts show I saw about 8 years ago. It would be hard to choose either him or Stanley Clarke over one or the other. I saw Esperanza Spalding at the Apollo Theater and she plays electric and upright bass awesome. She is almost at the same level as some of the male greats plus she can sing really well. And don't forget about Jaco Pastorious or Victor Wooten when talking about bass players!!
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nsp- Coltrane left halfway through the tour and was replace by Sonny Stitt. I have all of these concerts on separate cd's already so I have no need for the new "bootleg" set. The Coltrane interview is from the Stockholm cd here. https://www.amazon.com/Stockholm-1960-Complete-Miles-Davis/dp/B00000AW2R/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=U...This 4 disc set is awesome you get The March 1960 concert with Coltrane on tenor. Sometime later he left the European tour to get started with his new band which, after some changes in musician personnel, was settled by 1961 with the famous Impulse Recording production lineup of Elvin Jones on percussion, McCoy Tyner on piano, and Reggie Workman, shortly replaced Permanently by Jimmy Garrison on bass. The return October 1960 concert at Stockholm had Sonny Stitt on both tenor and alto. Miles was not to happy with this arrangement. |
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rok2cid
There are many newer jazz artists that still play the kind of jazz I believe you like. Just go on Amazons website, sample some of the music, and keep checking your local jazz venues to see if they are coming to town!
I could name them and post some songs on here if you want. |
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nsp
Thanks for the link I like her. Was not aware of her. That's at the Iridium club on 51st and Broadway, NYC. Less Paul used to play there every Monday night until he died. I have been down those stairs to many times to count!!
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Most of the conversation/debate above can be summed up by looking at the recording career of Miles Davis, who I believe, over the long run through his contract with Columbia Records, made more money then any other jazz musician in history on recordings. Yet he still was constantly evolving in his music. He considered staying in the same musical comfort zone blasphemy. Eventually he did not even want to call his music jazz anymore. This is evident progressively in all of his years recording.
Starting out when be bop was the in thing he recorded on sessions with Charlie Parker and others. He then went into be bop/ hard bop so you could say he played mostly be bop/hard bop from 1945-1958, when he started to experiment with modality on the title track from the Milestones recording. Kind of Blue was based entirely on modality followed by Sketches of Spain based on Spanish folk music. Constantly evolving you could easily here the freshness of what he played from 1965-68 with Shorter, Hancock, Carter, and Williams. These 4 years saw Miles helping pioneer the post bop genre with more abstract recordings. He then moved into his electric and avant garde recordings In A Silent Way and Bitches Brew. Continuing forward using predominately electric recordings into a jazz/funk/rock type fusion, which, in my opinion was clearly predominant on the Cellar Door Sessions and Agharta. I had quite the listening session last night with Agharta disks 1 and 2, in which I have imported Japanese pressings and the sound is amazing. The music on Agharta takes you on a hour and forty five minute (both discs) "trip" through some amazing music.
So, IMHO, Miles' career tells us all we need to know about how jazz progresses if the artist wants to whether there is money in it or not as Miles was a wealthy man. |
orpheus 10-
I was writing my post above when you posted yours. It is not a coincidence that we both used Miles as an example of the evolution of jazz. and the different directions you can take with it. |
pryso-
Quite correct you are about "Birth Of The Cool" That whole affair, although it started around 1949 I believe, so it must be said that was miles first foray outside the bebop stuff, was kind of strange. The nonet, which had revolving musicians and was recorded in over a year I believe, with just a few songs being released as singles until the album was released by Capital Records (11 tracks) in 1957. Not one of my favorites but you are correct in that it was his first "alternate direction" |
I have not checked in for a while. Nancy Wilson is great no doubt about it and I forgot to mention her on my post up thread. Stanley Turrentine is another great sax player and another great but relatively unknown sax player is Jimmy Forrest. Nobody mentioned the late great Donald Byrd on trumpet. For shame!..Donald was great on hard bop and flowed right into the jazz/funk scene of the late 60's -early 70's. I listen to Ethiopian Nights in full at least once a month!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtKcvoeO2vA&t=30s |
O10
I have Black Byrd to and I like In Flight but I listen to Ethiopian Nights far more often then Black Byrd. Just cant get enough of "The Emperor" and "The Little Rasti"....a combined 32 minutes of jazz/funk bliss. Some of my other favorites in a similar style of jazz/funk is Jimmy Smiths "Root Down" and Dr. Lonnie Smith's "Think!", and "Live at Club Mozambique" so you know where I'm coming from!
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A question for all. Wikipedia quotes on Coleman Hawkins " he was the leader on what is generally considered to have been the first ever bebop recording session in 1944 with Dizzy Gillespie, Pettiford and Roach. Wiki lists 3 sources for this: 1. ^ Togashi, Nobuaki; Matsubayashi, Kohji; Hatta, Masayuki. "Max Roach Discography". jazzdisco.org. Retrieved July 1, 2009.2. Brown, Don. "What Are Considered the First Bebop Recordings? – Jazz Bulletin Board". All About Jazz. Retrieved July 1, 2009.
3. Four of the six tracks from the recording sessions of February 16 and 22, 1944 in New York were originally released by Apollo Records as singles and on the album Coleman Hawkins and His All Stars (LAP 101), later reissued by Delmark on Rainbow Mist (cf. Jazzdiso.org-reference), and now to find on various compilations
First ever? I know Wiki is not the best source of "highly specific" info. A quick search on Amazon and I could not find the recording quoted in the 3rd source:
" Coleman Hawkins and His All Stars " There were recordings with that title but not the one with Dizzy Gillespie, Pettiford and Roach.
What are the thoughts of members here on this recording being "the first ever bebop recording session"?...and does anyone have a copy of that recording? |
Thanks frogman for the link on the one song from what "some consider" the "first recorded bebop album". I know you do not agree and posted the link so I could hear certain similarities in Hawkins' "improvised chords". However it is nothing like what Bird was doing during the same period.
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frogman quoted " the fact that so many were able to copy his style shows just how comprehensible it is."
There were many who could emulate Parker almost to a T. Sonny Stitt came to the fore immediately when I saw your quote. And one thing is for certain: When Art Pepper played bebop on the alto, as did Bird, he was just as good IMHO.
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Art Pepper "Cherokee" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTx7xiVcmc8Art Pepper, played an extremely long version of "Cherokee" on one of the nights at the Village Vanguard comeback sessions in 1977. Before he starts playing he addresses the audience by saying "If you can’t play this tune and play the crap out of it...don’t blow!!"....then he proceeds to "knock the socks of it" All this when he was in his early 50’s after 30 plus years of drug abuse and long prison stints. He would die a few years later in his late 50’s. The complete sessions are a worthy investment. https://www.allmusic.com/album/the-complete-village-vanguard-sessions-mw0000124795 |
010
I'm not saying they wanted to sound like Bird identically. Thats why I said "almost" to a T.
After Charlie Parker became "godlike" in the eyes of hundreds of up and coming sax players, they could not help but sound like him as they were using his waxed recordings for practice. Why even Sonny Rollins went through a "Bird Stage" early in his career. I am merely stating that many of the upper echelon sax players of that time and even today could blow off some bebop jams that sound somewhat identical in terms of chord progressions and tone ect.
In his book, Art Pepper stated Bird was a notch above everyone including himself so your right when you stated he would not have said that. Pepper was always modest, to a fault, but he had held a grudge against many black jazz musicians during his early years through to his long incarceration at San Quentin. The cause was all the rumors and backstage whisperings he always heard about " that white boy who tries to sound black on tenor". Yes black racism if you will. Its all in his book. When he was released from prison, and subsequently rehab, meeting his soon to be wife Laurie ( who I have exchanged emails), his career resurged and he played many gigs and also recorded with many great jazz artists regardless of their race. Elvin Jones plays the skins on every recording night at the "Complete Village Vanguard" sessions. and George Cables became his favorite piano player and trusted friend. He states in the book that all was forgiven, and his early distaste of black artists was unjust and bought about by his own insecurities and faults which was the root cause of his addiction. |
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I have "Clifford Brown & Max Roach", "Brown and Roach Inc.", and "At Basin Street [expanded]"...Their take on "Delilah" is definitely a work of art!
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bluesy41
Mingus Live at Antibes!......Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting!!
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Hello all. Long time (very busy).
I have missed many pages but read this one. Love Dexter Gordon. My favorite tune of his is the song "Tanya" from the LP "One Flight Up." I have a dozen Albums of RR.Kirk. Rahsaan was an underappreciated genius with the circular breathing and very intellectual as well. Another favorite of mine is Woody Shaw. I have all of his recordings (that I was able to obtain).
I have a question for all. If there was only one or two Jack Teagarden discs you could get which would they be? |
Thanks for the Jack Teagarden recommendations and youtube links. Still waiting on the arrival of the discs I ordered. I first heard about Jack while reading a Stan Getz biography many years ago. I never bought any of his music because I'm really not into the "big band Dixie land swing." However while watching a recent episode of Bosch on Amazon I heard a nice "Big T" tune while Bosch was in the evidence room and he told the officer in charge there to turn it up because Ben Webster was about to take his solo. I really liked the tune and found it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7mp_qtPa2cNotice the reviewers also commented they heard it on Bosch! Anyway he is an awesomely talented trombone player just don't dig much of his music because of the particular jazz he usually played. Same thing with Buddy Rich. He is a great (some argue best) drummer but I don't dig a lot of his music although I love watching his solo's on youtube! |
Orpheus10 I am truly sorry to hear of your health problem. My mom died from breast cancer at 58 yo and my younger sister died just last year from lung cancer at 50 yo (she never smoked). I have been lucky so far... Jack Teagarden's record Misry and the Blues is a really great blues/balled record with just one dixie swing tune. It really showcases his talent on the trombone and he does have cool crooning vocal ability. I am still waiting on the other record I bought here; https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007CEXJK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1Quote second review: These four discs are truly the best of Jack Teagarden. The selections on all four discs are perfect, with no duds, and the engineering quality is high. The stand-out is Disc Four, which is mostly groups with Teagarden and Louis Armstrong playing together. This material (also the last 3 selections on disc 3) features both Teagarden and Armstrong at their very best, mostly in live recordings - two musicians at the peak of their games spurring each other on and taking obvious pleasure playing together. In fact, I would choose many of these selections as the "best of the best" for Louis Armstrong as well as Teagarden. It includes the very best versions I know of Armstrong classics like "Ain't Misbehavin","Rocking Chair", "Black and Blue", "Royal Garden Blues", "Mahogany Hall Stomp", and "Way Down Yonder in New Orleans". I had never heard "Fifty-fifty Blues" but it is now one of my all-time favorite Armstrong-Teagarden performances. |
pryso, I enjoyed the short video link you posted up thread. I believe it could be from this DVD: https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Summers-Day-Mahalia-Jackson/dp/B00003OSU4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=153...frogman I don't know how you could write such a long post with the tiny tabs on a smart phone!...I guess I have chubby fingers. Anyways I have flown from NY to Tokyo no layovers which is 15 hours so I sympathize with you. However I was primed because I had flown from NY to Rio de Janeiro a dozen times or more before my trip to Japan. " I won’t judge the validity of anyone’s approach to the listening experience, and I expect the same. " I feel the same. However this is a public forum and people have a right to voice their opinions. That said I think if one dislikes certain music they should critic the music not the person who likes it. |
pryso thanks for the link. Not only is she a good drummer but I also like the music (fusion). I don't consider good jazz/rock/prog music "noise."(most of it anyway and certainly not that song). I saw the Return To Forever reunion tour in 2007 NYC. Have all their discs. Have all Mahavishnu orchestra discs too. Saw Stanley Clarke and Billy Cobham (separately) multiple times. Waiting for John McLaughlin, to come back NYC way. Have tickets to Mike Stern with Jimmy Cobb on the drum kit this August 17 at Birdland doing a Miles Davis tribute. @orpheus10 I have at least 20 Grant Green discs. I love his tone and style. |
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nsp I think you will enjoy that HCW disc. I ordered the JM live disc you suggested but the Bruford disc was pricey on Amazon. I'll need to look around for a better price. |
nsp I started buying Hiromi recordings back in 2006 starting with the "Brain" sessions. Telarc was her label for a long time and the CD's Brain, Spiral, Time Control, and Beyond Standard were all released in a hybrid SACD format. At that time it was the only way they were released and usually for 15-20 dollars. I like the sessions with "Sonicbloom" backing her as it added the electric guitar virtuoso David "Fuze" Fiuczynski. All of her trio sessions are also awesome usually with Anthony Jackson on electric bass and Simon Phillips on the drum kit. No introduction is needed for those two!!!
My personal favorite session "Beyond Standard" with "Sonicbloom" I saw them for that album tour at the Blue Note NYC and they tore it up down there. Here is a snippet from the Amazon blurb: Hiromi's supergroup, Sonicbloom, has shattered the formula of making records written solely by the celebrated pianist/composer. Their latest outing, "Beyond Standard," finds Tony Grey (bass), Martin Valihora (drums), and Dave "Fuze" Fiuczynski (guitar and otherworldly sounds) helping Hiromi craft unique versions of familiar tunes such as Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm," Rogers & Hammerstein's "My Favorite Things" and even Jeff Beck's "Led Boots." The group has been recognized for its energetic virtuosity by music industry and mainstream publications alike: Downbeat, JazzTimes, Keyboard, and The New York Times. Playing festivals such as Glastonbury, Fuji Rock, and Playboy Jazz proves that Hiromi's unique fusion nuevo has been accepted in the world of jazz as well as rock. "Beyond Standard" is a showcase for Hiromi and her band's abilities, with each player getting plenty of room to shine. I don't have regular cd versions of her first half dozen recording sessions to compare with my SACD version on an A-B basis so I could not tell you if the sound quality is better. |
nsp
I listened to all her discs years ago on my SACD compatible player. Since then I have ripped my whole collection to my laptop via Windows Media Player in FLAC format (lossless). I connect my Laptop to my AVR via HDMI to listen to music so I don't have to load and unload discs constantly. I have all my discs (approaching 500)stored in boxes. I would have to physically play the disc to get the SACD format. If I have time this weekend I will try an A-B analysis. I have listened to plenty of her music via my laptop/AVR and it sounds fantastic. The engineers did a great job. Wide soundstage/imaging with subtle nuances all shining through.
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orpheus10
At least you saw him live. I was but 4 years old when he passed. I hope you are feeling good today. One day at a time. You are in my prayers as are everyone I know stricken with that insidious disease.
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