O-10, as always, I am sorry that a more enlightened discussion is not possible. There are two things going on here as is usual. You want to be right about an incomplete viewpoint that you hold no matter how much evidence is presented that points to the contrary. Then, you make an argument for your viewpoint with assertions that do not contradict the opposing viewpoint, but which are, in fact, part of the whole picture; as if this would make your case. You don’t see that irony because your viewpoint is incomplete. We tend to see what we want to see. I would simply ask this question: how would it be possible for someone to understand the evolutionary process that led to bebop when that listener, by his own admission, has not listened to very much of, nor is interested in listening to, the music that preceded it? Nice clips, btw.
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, this is not philosophy or psychology, this is music; it is the discussion, not what you say, or what I say. When you say Be Bop, you say "Bird"; there was no Be Bop before "Bird". Parker was a blazingly fast virtuoso, and he introduced revolutionary harmonic ideas including rapid passing chords, new variants of altered chords, and chord substitutions. I'm not a musician, I don't really know what that means, but I can hear it; even with "Bird With Strings". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmRkZeGFONg Here I can hear all those "Be Bop" chords over the melody in such a way that nothing is lost in the melody; "Who else can do that"? There are imitators and duplicators, but when you say "Be Bop" there is only one "Bird". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug0K62enZ5E We have but one option, and that is to agree to disagree. |
You are welcome, pjw. There are trends in musical styles and often a player develops a certain style that becomes the stylistic seed for a younger player to then take further. The player who contributed that seed may or may not take it further himself. This is a key characteristic of any artistic endeavor. It’s simply the way it works. In the case of Hawkins, his playing, compared to that of swing players before him was anything but “nothing compared to Bird”. Think of it as a stepping stone between classic swing and bebop. I believe that was my point. I have a challenge for all who don’t believe in the evolutionary process that, in this case, led to bebop. Much has been written by musicians themselves and jazz historians about Coleman Hawkins’ place in all this. A simple internet search of Hawkins “Body And Soul” will yield dozens of hits. There is also much written in support of the idea re Hawkins/bebop. Produce written commentary that disputes or discredits this well established footnote in jazz history. One would think that given how much has been written in support that there would be at least a little bit in opposition. |
Frogman, what all the other musicians knew is the same thing I'm telling you; the complexity of Birds Bop is beyond comprehension. What I liked most about Bird was that confident but "humble" smile when he was being interviewed; he knew he had "it", and all of the other musicians knew he had "it". People can write till the cows come home, but I hear no "Be Bop" in Coleman Hawkins music prior to Bird. |
- 15551 posts total