My Love affair with LInn was back in the day with an LP12/Ittok/Asak turntable and Isobarik DMS loudspeakers. Since they have long gone from my ears, I never give Linn products a thought, even to this day its not a name I look too.
Linn Audio
Just curious why there’s not a single discussion on Audiogon forum regarding Linn. Linn makes outstanding gears and speakers as well. Especially their DS (digital streamer/DAC) such as the Linn Klimax DS or DSM, Linn Akurate DS or DSM, and Linn Majik DS or DSM. IMO Linn is very innovative and I have always loved their products, especially their digital source components (DS/DSM) and the famous Linn Sondek LP12 turntable with their own accompanying accessories.
Linn makes very musical sounding gears. Even their speakers are pretty awesome too esp when paired with all Linn electronics. Why no luv for Linn?
For my main two-channel setup in my dedicated two-channel room I used to have all Linn Klimax setup and system, from the Klimax DS, LP 12 Klimax version turntable all the way to the Linn Klimax 350 passive floorstanding speakers. But mine was a non-Exakt system. I used to be a Linnie.
I also like the fact that all Linn gears (electronics) are compact and do not take much space, especially Linn Klimax gears. You will even have less components if you go with Linn Exakt system/setup.
Linn makes very musical sounding gears. Even their speakers are pretty awesome too esp when paired with all Linn electronics. Why no luv for Linn?
For my main two-channel setup in my dedicated two-channel room I used to have all Linn Klimax setup and system, from the Klimax DS, LP 12 Klimax version turntable all the way to the Linn Klimax 350 passive floorstanding speakers. But mine was a non-Exakt system. I used to be a Linnie.
I also like the fact that all Linn gears (electronics) are compact and do not take much space, especially Linn Klimax gears. You will even have less components if you go with Linn Exakt system/setup.
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I noticed that there aren’t that many Linn dealers here in North America (US & Canada), unlike in Europe especially in UK. One of my hifi dealer here in Seattle, WA happens to be an exclusive Linn dealer and is the one and only Linn dealer in the entire NW region. The next closest one will be in California (SF bay area). No wonder Linnies have own discussion forum on Linn’s own website at Linn.co.uk. |
I guess we shouldn’t tell caphill that Portland Oregon is a bit closer to Seattle than San Francisco is. Pearl Audio Video https://pearlaudiovideo.com/collections/linn I agree with him, Linn is great stuff. I just wish they made a phono stage that did not digitize the analog signal. But that’s the old dog in me wishing for the good old days. |
Hahaha.....I never thought about Pearl Audio in Portland, OR but they don’t carry the whole line like Definitive Audio here in Seattle. Definitive Audio in Seattle is the biggest Linn dealer in the NW. Speaking of the latest Linn Urika phonostage that digitizes the signal, they had a demo here at this year Music Matters high end audio show event at Definitive Audio in Seattle comparing it to the previous model Urika phonostage in the same setup using exact same LP12 Klimax version turntable with Ekos SE titanium tonearm, Kandid mc cartridge, Klimax Radikal PSU, Keel machined sub-chassis and arm board, Trampolin aluminum baseboard. The new latest Urika sounded better than the previous one. Viridian, you will have to give a listen to the latest generation of Linn Klimax DS/DSM with Katalyst DAC architecture. I had a chance to have a listen to it and comparing it to the previous Klimax DS with non Katalyst DAC architecture at last year’s Music Matters event here. Again, the shootout between the two Klimax DSs were done in the same non Exakt setup and system using the Klimax Solo 500 monoblock amps driving a pair of Linn Klimax 350 passive floorstanders. It was pretty obvious the Klimax DS w/ Katalyst DAC architecture was better it was more expressive. There was more emotions involved with the latest gen the one w/ Katalyst DAC architecture. The presentation of the piano piece was lot more dramatic. |
Why? There were few choices back then, now there are many choices from umpteen manufacturers who offer as much, or better products. Not that I am demeaning Linn products in any way. |
Mahler, the Linn attitude to which I referred was that Linn products were the only good ones, that everything else was garbage. Linnies (I knew a few) were brainwashed, automatically dismissing everything that didn't play into the Linn view of Hi-Fi. Smug arrogance, I guess you'd call it. If you didn't consider Linn "The Best", you weren't listening for the right things. Sure, PRAT is important, but it's not everything. |
@bdp24 , I eventually escaped the clan and now look back in horror. What a waste of time and money that was. As I later learnt the entire Linn edifice was built upon the most suspicious of origins. The gorgeously iconic LP12 is disturbingly similar to quite a few predecessors. They may well have reformed and improved but the speakers (ugly plastic tweeter surrounding) I heard 4 years ago sounded hugely underwhelming for the asking price. Once bitten, forever twice shy. |
I think Linn people gravitate towards the Linn forum. Same with Naim. Very little discussion here about either. There are a lot of LP12 lovers here, but they tend to get shot down so there's no sense posting. The LP12 is a very polarizing subject. But it is a piece of audio history and deserves it's rightful place. |
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That's the polarizing part. Owners of upgraded LP12s maintain that their tables compete with the best, while many knowledgeable turntable people disagree, usually very strongly. Better off discussing religion or politics than the LP12. One amazing fact is that even the oldest LP12 can be upgraded to the most modern version. I don't think you could say that for anything else on the market. |
Linn was quite right in their "source-first" idea. Once lost, information can’t be recovered. But a loudspeaker can lose a lot too. A balanced system, no glaring weak link or bottle neck, is my philosophy. There’s no point in having any one component too much better than the others. What the Linn Sondek did was remind everyone that a turntable is a mechanical device, not an electronic one. As soon as I discovered it (1974, I believe), I knew I had to get rid of my Thorens TD-125 Mk.2. I came to the conclusion, though, that it’s kind of a glorified AR XA without the cr*ppy arm. |
Linn LP12 imo is considered a high end turntable or at least a very good quality turntable. I was told the Linn LP12 was the first high end turntable when it was first introduced in 1973. I wouldn't know myself cause I was only 2 yrs old in 1973. IMO the source is the most important component in the chain. What's lost early in the signal chain cannot be recovered. Speakers are also important too. Everything else in between are also equally important imo. |
I bought my new LP12 in 1977 c/w a Rega arm and can't remember the cartridge. it was a chunk of change as I was just starting college. I could not stretch to the Grace/Supex? combo. I still have the LP12 with the Ittok/Asak in the UK as well as the Isobarik DMS speakers. I dread to think how many changes/upgrades I would be behind If I ever chose to ship it over here. |
You should give a listen to the latest generation of the Linn Klimax DS/DSM with Katalyst DAC architecture. This new model just came out last year. Sounded quite a bit better than the previous generation of Klimax DS/DSM. It isn’t cheap I think it retails for $30k new. But literally you will have to step up to something like the MSB Reference or Select ll DAC or something like the DCS Vivaldi full stacks or the Esoteric Grandioso stacks to better it. I used to have the LP12 Klimax version turntable with Ekos SE titanium tonearm, Kandid mc cartridge, Trampolin baseboard, Keel sub chassis, Klimax Radikal PSU & Urika phonostage (previous model). IMO they sounded very good in my all Linn Klimax setup and system. Then when I upgraded to the Audio Research Ref 10 linestage preamp + D’Agostino Momentum M400 monoblock amps (2 pairs) + Wilson Audio Alexx speakers for a little while I was still using the Linn LP12 Klimax version turntable and they sounded great together until late last year when I upgraded to the Kronos Pro turntable with a 12" Black Beauty tonearm, PC-1 Air Tight Supreme mc cartridge, discrete class A linear PSU & Audio Research Ref 10 phonostage. These are indeed better than my previous Linn LP12 Klimax version turntable but are at completely different price points, thus not a fair comparison to begin with. Recently my setup and system has changed and evolved again since then. I got rid of the ARC Ref 10 linestage pre, D’Agostino Momentum M400 monoblock amps and the Wilson Audio Alexx about 4 months ago and decided to upgrade to something better and different. |
I never liked Linn's tactics with regards to how they used to treat the dealers. The dealers had to sell certain gear that would not compete with the Linn gear. I know this because I was friends with a dealer in London back in the early 90's. You'd never find a shop that you could audition a Linn TT against a Roksan, Pink Triangle or Michell. Soured my taste for their gear from then on. |
With the various arms, subchassis, bearings, power supplies, top plates, bottom plates and even plinths, LP12's are not all the same. Those upgraded to the highest levels are very good and compete with other expensive turntables. In my experience, I preferred my upgraded Linn to a significantly more expensive turntable that I owned simultaneously and compared using identical cartridges. I am sure that there are better turntables out there but I believe that the various iterations of LP12 compete with other turntables of comparable, and sometimes higher, price. Linns benefit from careful set up and it is not easy to do competent LP12 set up without some experience. If you don't have a good dealer or are not comfortable setting up an LP12, it may not be a good choice. Linn proponents are quick to dismiss comparisons between LP12's and other turntables when LP12's lose. They often claim that incompetent set up of the LP12 disadvantaged it. Or they will just say that those with preferences for other tables are wrong. Ivor Tiefenbrun, the LP12's inventor, has been a very combative guy and while probably right more than wrong during the last 40 some years, he seems never to doubt his own opinion. There are more than 150,000 LP12's that have been made. The popularity of the Linn reflects clever and aggressive marketing to be sure, but it also reflects a product that, when set up well and given reasonable care, sounds very good. It's worth a listen if you have a chance. |
Just to clarify my prior post, Mr. Tiefenbrun's intelligence, confidence and aggressive promotion of Linn products struck - and may still strike - many as arrogant. The company sometimes reflected its founder's attitudes and some US dealers opted not to deal with Linn, thus depleting their previously strong US dealer network. US distribution changed a couple or three times through the years and that seems not to have helped maintain the dealer count. More recently, Linn has focused increasingly on digital products, even digitizing the signal taken from an LP12 and converting it to a digital signal at the phono preamplifier, transforming that signal back to analog only at their speakers that include their own built-in DACs and amplifiers. I have heard one of these systems in an all-Linn shop in Europe that was set up under supervision of a senior Linn representative. The sound did not appeal to me but I may not have given it adequate opportunity. I love my LP12 and have upgraded it to a high specification. I would probably need to spend more than I am willing to improve upon my LP12 so I am likely to keep it, maybe forever. |
casaross, your post raises and interesting subject. Not just the Sondek, but other products from other companies are introduced in their original forms and at original prices, and establish their price-to-performance niche in the marketplace. Over the years improvements, upgrades, and options for those products are introduced which, if fully implemented, completely change their-price-to-performance ratio, sometimes improving that ratio, but more commonly the opposite. With those implementations, the product is now priced comparably with other products whose basic design may be superior to the owners product, offering better performance/sound for the same price. An owner of one of the original pieces may have not just an economic investment in that piece, but also an emotional one, and may be unable to dispassionately evaluate the wisdom of dumping a considerable amount of money into the piece instead of changing course. The Sondek retailed for $300 when I discovered it in ’74, about the same price as the Thorens TD-125 Mk.2, and offering superior performance/sound. Over the years Linn offered many, many improvements, upgrades, and options for the Sondek, as did VPI for their HW-19 and TNT tables. IMO, VPI improved it’s price-to-performance ratio, Linn the opposite. |
Polarizing LP12 kind of took the thread over didn't it, lol. I also noted that the "Linn attitude" was a turn off. A few other Brit-based manufacturers were mentioned as not being discussed much here (in the US I'm assuming). What about the quality of the equipment? (Output sound, build quality and on and on). The Linn dealer near to where I reside (and I'm talking "back in the day (80's-90's)" was nothing but enthusiastic about Linn (bang for the buck type of quality) but never conveyed the illusion of Linn being the be all-end all of high end audio equipment; in fact, they would happily demo other equipment that was considered (and sounded) better...but also cost a good deal more too! That's my experience (for what it's worth). |
LP12 had been the defacto high end that many record lovers willing to pay more for something better coveted for many years and the benchmark for other later high end products to match or exceed. I’ve had my Linn Axis since 1986 and still loving it. The next oldest piece in my main system is a good 20+ years younger. I see other Linn gear come up for sale here that would appear to offer very good value since not talked about much at all here these days. Maybe we buyers should keep it that way. |
A new LP12 with majik arm is about $3800 in the US. There is an LP12 with Ittok (ancient) arm and Grado cartridge for sale on here for $2999, so they do hold their value it would appear. Then again does it makes sense to buy an really old turntable that is basically stock when you can get a new one for only $800 more that is also more up to date? hmmmm. For me I would be happy with a Rega 6. |
After visiting many hi-fi shows here in the UK during the seventies and hearing the LP12 demonstrated by Linn personnel, I was not convinced or persuaded to buy one (and the same applies to Naim gear). The LP12 was standard fair for many of the demo rooms often hidden away and balanced precariously on wash basins in hotel bathrooms !!. The best Linn demo I heard was a complete high end system wired throughout with Nordost Valhalla, when Nordost was "must have" cable. However, I was always impressed by the sound in the Michell rooms and having chatted with John Michell opted for the Gyrodec. This has been upgraded to Orbe status over the intervening years, and with an SME V tonearm complete with Koetsu Black cartridge. If I did upgrade, it would have to be the SME turntable 15 or 20, but sadly a windfall on the lottery will be needed. |
