PMC vs. ATC

"The person who complained the most when I took them to atc dems were female."

If I get ever get past my Masters, my doctorate thesis is on why women do not participate in audio the physiological and psychological factors. Audiophiles? give me woman anytime to judge the sound of a system.

My ATC's are active, infact the speakers I build have room correction and response shaping built in with their amplification and Blue Sky, Meyer and ATC are all active speaker lines (ATC has a mix as you know), Most passive speakers simply cannot get to the level of performance active speakers can without using very expensive amplification, which makes them more expensive for the same performance. The reason I don't have PMC is they are more expensive and not a strong a line at more modest price points as ATC and DALI, so they had to slide on the priority scale a little but their time will come.

Have a good one.

PS: Checkout the lake technology crossover @ www.lake.com

Brizonbiovizier,

You need to get up to date, the PMC's and ATC's are nearly interchangeable, the PMC's go deeper but they don't have the sense of timbre the ATC's have in the bass.

As for the highs, ATC two years ago upgraded to the SEAS from the Vifa. problem solved. I just played before i posted Megadeth, Metallica and Queensryche at 110+ dB on SCM150ASL's and no chalkboard problems,

I like both speakers its a win win especially if you go active. Whichever one costs less if you want my opinion.

PS: the SCm50's are light in the bass, versus all the other speakers mentioned.

Brizonbiovizier,

AS a fan and soon to be dealer of PMC, ATC, and Meyer Sound, your assessment it appears is based on a system you have no control over. The PMC and the ATC are so similar and outstanding that I don't disagree with your preference I just can't agree with the magnitude of your statements. You intellectually have to realize that your experiences have been flawed to some degree. The PMC is modeled after the ATC and there's nothing wrong with that!

The ATC has a better tweeter but female vocals are generated by the midrange in both speakers and trying to say the original is not as good as the copy would be hard to believe.

I've been in studio and my own system with both PMC and ATC and they are both really X3 good and really X4 accurate, the PMC is the less detailed but has better bass (probably related in perception) (love those Volt drivers) and as far as I know their version of the midrange is not up to the SL standards yet, correct me if I'm wrong?. I have not talked to anyone from PMC in about a year.

I can tell you that ATC's are not purposely affected to be monitors, just like the PMC's are not fettered either. I don't know where you're getting your information from. But your nearest ATC dealer seems to need your help with speaker setup ;). Because the 100's should not drive you from the room. I'm not going to disagreee about the bass, but the there is a design reason for that.

You're just getting bad demos and you should know that.

Sorry.

Brizon,

I don't have to read the websites I have measured the speakers talked to the designers and have measurements that unless you requested them from the manufacturers yourself or worked there do not have.

Yeah they sound a little different but again like you mentioned the ATC's require close to wall placement and PMC's do not. If you pull ATC's out into the room you greatly affect their tonal balance to the negative. And where I disagree with you is this night and day portrayal of these speakers. As for BBC sound?, that is garbage, why would a Mastering monitor require a nearfield small speaker patch up?

Expert status like yours?, are you a tourist or the real deal bro, don't poke around. If you understand impulse response and IMD then don't play coy. Lets chat it up and educate the folks about how a speaker works.

Look I really don't want to go on and on I stated my case and my experience. Let it get sorted out from there. If you want to talk real tech then give me some real reasons other than your tourist perspective.

"That is their history and that is fact. Neither impulse response or IMD are relevent here you are just tossing in technical terms to try to make yourself look like an expert, hoping that I don't know what they mean and will back down."

No actually I was hoping you had more than some listening experiences that directly conflicts with my own. Are your experiences more valid that mine? See we are in a dead lock, what I hear versus what you hear is juxtaposed. But I thought maybe you'd explain how the PMC midrange is better than the ATC? Thought maybe you'd have some facts, my laying down the rules of engagement was to add some structure on what level I wished to discuss this vast improvement you claim for the PMC has come about and how it manifests itself as superior in the design. I am listening to what you have to say, It be nice to learn something on this forum.

You are the one who keeps upping the stakes and we've got a long way to go before I'm all in if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately, what I hear is junior league sales training coming from you and the reason I know is because I went through it myself. In your posts you seem to want to overlook that the ATC is designed to go against or in the wall which will have it load the room even better than a T-Line, especially when placed in the wall.

As I posted earlier it is only a matter of time before I am a PMC dealer too, I have not said once that the ATC is better than the PMC what this discussion is about is that ATC's are not as bad as you portray. I think I've said that like 5 times now.

Up till now you are the one who wants to to validate your experiences and you are the one who has put himself in this position by making outrageous statements justifying you opinion and experiences. Don't tire out on me now, I'm just seeing if you can back it up. Do you have a problem with that? If you want I can back it up, just ask me, what do you want to know?

"They are designed for mix analysis - that is where atc started and where they sold to the studios."

That is not what Billy Woodman told me, what did he tell you?

"I don't need a high frequency response plot to know a speaker is sharp if my ears are bleeding!"

So speaker manufactures like PMC and ATC (same level of professionals use their equipment world wide) become respected world over and yet the ATC's are flawed to the point where they make your ears bleed. See how ludicrous your comments are? And yet the typical weak *ss tactic of "I didn't claim expert status - you did - so I don't have to defend myself as a "tourist"", well you seem quite certain that I'm out of line and so I thought that required you knowing something I don't? So I thought you'd share some real facts not some sales back story. Instead you've flexed your Clintonesque skills of talking around the point and trying to make me the topic when its the speakers I want to talk about.

"Let's talk tweeter characteristics and crossover voicing. That is where the atc problem lies and they are voiced that way for a reason."

So what is wrong with the SEAS tweeter?

http://www.seas.no/SEAS%20by%20Excel.htm,

I'd like your opinion the link will get you to the site. And if the ATC's measure flat +/- 1 dB in room from 1200-16,000hz where is the peaky voicing?

C'mon dude slam dunk me, I'm not guarding the hoop, its wide open. Just one interesting relevant fact about the PMC's or ATC's performance to justify that the ATC makes you run from the room and the PMC is the cat's pajamas.

What about the tweeter, do you know what the distortion is for that tweeter at 3Khz?

None of what you told me already means anything...T-Line does not make a speaker tolerable and one intolerable. I'm looking for something good like the rise time of the midrange has been improve X%...I'll be waiting, don't let me down.

Ah Brizonbiovizier,

Well your attempt at slam dunk came up a bit short. And all I wanted was a temperment of your earlier comments about the ATC's and I think I got it, thank you.

Voicing differences I can accept, and I'll never get through to you because you know so little about speakers. But keep up the R&D, your better than average you just have a few wires crossed.

I will tell you this for future reference, I'm not a salesman and I have done more R&D than you have, especially in audio. SO just be careful because our conversaation never got above elementary for me and I lost you when I went JR High on you..

PS: Try not to confuse the TL superiority over Ported systems with superiority over sealed box systems. Oh and I almost forgot my scientific response, "2pi loading" Been fun.

Inpeices;

Because Brizon keeps dragging this out after he calls his friend who knows about speakers. It be nice if he would just come out and say what he has to say.

He keeps ducking in and of this technical to neophyte wording which likely means he's calling a friend to help him because his concepts are correct but his symantics are NOT TO THE LEVEL OF HIS ARGUMENT, so my hostility is to his wasting my time. But then again I am sitting for my nephews so I'll waste his.

"I have sign have a slight rise in anachoic conditions which equates to a treble peak in real life when reverbation in a real listening room is considered."

Sign? And you can't have recent ATC anechoic measurements you BS fabricator.

Treble lift, so PMC puts a dip in their response to anticpate this? My opinion of PMC's design team is slowly sliding down the respect scale due to your rhetoric(maybe you'd like to disclose the frequencies this phenomena effects typically) in room versus anechoic behaviour, is highly dependent on room acoustics as is bass lift which can be an enemy of a T-Line as most rooms will add gain significantly below 40 HZ, you don't want a speaker flat to 20hz because it will end up +12dB. So it doesn't make much sense PMC would compensate for treble lift and ignore room gain? But in my room measurements show no lift except a tinge around 14khz but I don't know if that's the tweeters normal response in the treble in fact it is the tweeter which rolls off at about 12dB/octave starting at 16khz that mainly gives us the +/-1 variable. But that is likely due to the diffusive room treatments I have. So we go along, your experience versus mine. IF you're in the UK maybe its the humidity that's making the difference?

It be nice to see how the PMC mid stacks up against the ATC mid in 2005, call your friend and have him serve up the data, I'll get some from ATC. The last time I compared it was 2001 and the PMC was slower but appeared to be slightly better damped which will make it smoother sounding. But you already know that, well maybe you don't because you said impulse response was irrelevant. The MB2's were more dynamic (bass) but not as coherent as the ATC's. Most of my PMC experience recently has been with the more ordinarily priced speakers so forgive me for talking about a 4 year old memory but I did have them in my house for a month or so, I think I got the best out of them and their best was absolutely outstanding.

BTW Voicing is not a scientific term its a term used by speaker designers who can't get right so they fudge or change their speaker so they can sell it. I'm a salesman so I know these things. Do you have an issue with the 4th order crossover used by ATC, personally the integration on my 150's is flawless, not ripple to be heard not a ripple to be seen, the mid does have a little bump but that could be mic positioning and the like. Maybe you info is flawed? I know what I hear and the 150's play all my CD's just fine no glare or harshness a little more forward when played in two channel but I listen in trifield so that isn't a problem

Sharp is not a technical term, sharp is caused by distortion whether it is amplitude or unwanted modulation. maybe you guys talk that way over there, like bonnet etc. So we may have a semantics problem.

Your comments on T-Lines, they load the room better is technical?, is incorrect unless you mean easily more boomy. they do not present stiffer impedance than a sealed box it acts just like a sealed box over most of its frequency. 2pi loading is better and more manageable in room it creates the least modal problems, what were you talking about, what does your research show Brizon? Most of the superiority is not proven its opinion and its superior for the application those designers intend, I prefer to use subwoofer where you have T-line output, so for every positive there is a negative, my opinion I like sealed boxes the best with impedance correction, I build my subs that way and for domestic use I try to only get my speakers flat to 50 hz because bass and midrange need to be in seperate places to "load" the room properly. I use a T-line type cavity to remove the resonant energy from the cone in one of my designs , but having air coming out of a tube is one more variable I do not welcome, . See we have different philosophy's maybe we can compare speaker designs?

See we are talking about ATC and PMC, neither of which have text book loading, but I don't need to tell you that which is why they outperform the more pedestrian offerrings from other companies. To lump ATC with B&W just shows you have an axe to grind and objectivity is beyond your R&D mentality, you should throw PMC in there to then with B&W, because all they have done is shined up pro models for home use and how about those Bryston amplifiers, I guess they're a bunch of sell outs too like ATC. You act like PMC is so different, but I don't see it and you have this attitude like you're fighting uphill against the industry leader (like I do, carrying PMC, Meyer, DALI, Blue Sky and ATC does not make you the most popular dealer, trust me) like ATC as if they don't deserve it. But the fact is JBL is probably the industry leader and ATC and PMC are in the same fight against them.

Your supositions based on incorrect second hand knowledge about what ATC is trying to do are not facts to rebbutle they are just some time wasting topic spinning BS you made up. The things you discuss do not relate to the 50's,100's and 150's. 7's 12's 35's yes.

BTW go to www.theavarchitect.com and you can see my 150's now one thing I didn't think of was that they were specially built for an AES Sony SACD demo, so maybe they differ from the run of the mill 150? That I do not know. But the 50's I have measured seemed similar through the treble and were tocu analytical due to the lack of bass afforded by the 100's and 150's.

Usually I'm not discussing two excellent speaker systems because a person smart enough to buy PMC respects the ATC, which I think I had to drag out of you under one of your pretenses that the ATC's 50,100.150's are desk monitors...Whatever. You are different and in the end you are the one who is the salesman but you won't disclose it.

Whoever you look to for guidance in what makes a superior speaker differs from mine in their philosophy. And that's ok.

Like I said I wanted you to temper you comments and you did, maybe in the UK? ATC is a big dog marketing driven company, but here in the US it is much different.

"You have no idea how much R&D I have done thank you," well saying that means nothing to me why not say I have 20 years R&D experience? When it comes to audio I KNOW you have little experience or it was wasted experience while you got paid for it, or you have been unfair in dragging this out.

Later,

Hey brizon,

Well I don't doubt we could swap systems and go on enjoying ourselves, I'm glad we (I) had a holiday weekend to sort this out.

All do respect to what you were saying, I get it now but you were talking like two people, and I appreciate you dumbing it down but to me it was deceptive (not intentional I know) I wanted to have a discussion not a fishing expedition :). Look if you studied speech intelegibility then let me know, part of my film degree (25%) of my classes were devoted to speech intellegibility and "noise" in communication. I still study it today, independently. I was just fishing to see who you were and I must say, the combination of semi-promotional speak (fastest growing speakers...on the back of domestic sales) SOLD!!!!, words like sharp and etc, with an obvious clear understanding of how things work, I'm like "who is this guy can I go here, lets poke him and call him a tourist if he's educated I'll get a response!" I knew you were playing me, So I kept poking you with those crazy SUP's and traps so you'd tell me to clarify my petulant ways. :)

Hey check these out, these kind of support my argument but they were the only ones I could find if you can direct me to others I want to see because the speaker is what it is and I can't change what the ATC is and You can't change what the PMC is....so i'd like to know what I can.

http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/transaudiodirect/65
eratc.pdf, "this is kind of sketchy I know."

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/speakersystems/5/index5.html

I have a new mic preamp coming in and when I get it if you're interested I'll take some measurements of my 150's and I'll run them through the psychoacoustic filter and compare the straight in room response, take a quasi-anechoic then with the psycho-acoustic filter see what we get.

I must admit that I took sharp as more of an adverb and an adjective, or a dynamic problem. So that's why I jumped to impulse response or IMD because I assumed if it drove you from the room it had to appear by surprise not as a consistent character or you wouldn't have played it that loud. LOL! But maybe I'm taking you too literally.

Fact is after all this we still disagree on magnitude and I still percieve your hearing like the Princess and the Pea :)....still, I guess it is what it is. Thanks for the kind words on my sub design and since I work typically in 8X12X3 meter rooms max, you understand my philosophy.

I sold the Bryston St series the SST's seem a bit softer, that's probably because so many speakers are sharp...I guess that's the best way to go to catch a few more flies if you're building amplifiers these days.

Have a good week. look forward to chatting again hopefully more constructively now that we know each other a little better.

I had MB2's, Those are the only big three way PMC's I have heard.

Doug

PS: "The PMC midrange driver spec is not in the public doman so far as I know as it is an in-house design. contrary to your beliefs I don't have inside access at PMC."

Actually it was wishful thinking. I'm a curious dude when it comes to these things ;(

Yeah, he beat me at my own game. :)