PMC vs. ATC

No collusion - just human nature. People with vested interests are not impartial. Especially when it involves money. Hifi mags are corrupt - it has been proved in court in the UK. I also have friends "in the trade" and I am very well aware of what gopes on between dealers mags and the manufacturers. I am already on audio asylum - who is RGA? ;-)

Sales training? This comment is rather revealing - so your spiel is "advanced sales training" then (advanced BS? ;-))? That would appear to be it in a nutshell. I dont work in hifi. However I do come from an engineering research background and my arguments are based upon that angle. Your suppositions are way off as always. As I said neither IMD or impulse response are relevent here. Had you made some more pertinent comments your assertions may have deserved more credulity.

Speaker performance isn't just about driver stats. Can you know a speakers bass extension just from the bass driver frequency range? Of course not. Same for the treble. The atc frequency response plots I have sign have a slight rise in anachoic conditions which equates to a treble peak in real life when reverbation in a real listening room is considered. +1db sine wave isnt much but +1db broad band signal is a lot of extra energy and the ear can pick it up easily. Again this cannot necessarily be deduced from the driver - the crossover and cabinet must be considered, as well as typical listening conditions. In addition frequency plots dont tell the whole story. Variations in off axis response can make any speaker look flat if you position the mic right - doesnt mean it reflects real life though. Lies, damn lies and statistics... and as these are musical reproduction devices the ultmate test of acceptibility is how they sound - in conjunction with rigourous enginerring development. I buy based on sound not stats (though I would like to imagine good engieering and good sound quality are strongly linked). However the latter on its own is not enough. Plenty of hifi has outstanding specs all round but still sounds awful. Because people develop to these metrics and our understanding is not complete. Plus manufacturers pick and choose specs to show their equipment in its best light and ignore the shortcomings so manufacturers specs are not a relaible source of information. This is true in every engineering field. There are opamps and transistors with fab specs but sound terrible - it's only when you examine them yourself that you see the short comings and they are not necessarily encapsulated by tradition specs. Music is a complex signal and it is very hard to make effective metrics - steady state sinewaves are not always useful - which is why lsitening tests are so essential. The ear is a nonlinear mechanism and the least well understood of our senses still. Psycho acoutics is still a bit of a black art.

In addition PMC midrange units are proprietary and the specs are not in the public domain (as you well know). The bottom line is - PMC sound markedly better on female voice. Partly due to TL and partly due to the improved midrange unit. If I was able to compare the specs of the two drivers I could perhaps suggest a reason for this. If you have them please forward them and I will be happy to do so.

To claim rear wall reinforcement will load a room as effectively as a TL is rather a bizarre staement at odds with scientific theory and practice. Back that up with a rigourous explanantion. I heard the ATC's close to the wall and also away from the wall. It was sharp either way. In addition TL stiffens the bass driver to give a double benefit. In combination these two effects not only improve the bass but have knock on effect into the midrange (which they partially cover anyway).

ATC have changed their story to match the changing times and the consumer market. They have already tweaked drive units and crossovers to make them more domestically acceptable in the treble and bass over the last few years. I have spoken to rec engs over the eyars and I know what they are used for. The sharpness is not a "flaw" when considered for the pro market. As I said the atc do what they are designed for - which doesnt align well with domestic use. Just because a spanner cant tithten screws doesnt mean it is flawed. Its a fit tool for its purpose and so is the atc. But now they want to make money from the home market. The adaptions they have already made prove my points.

As I recall I restricted myself to the products until you made groundless suppositions about the dems I have attended. In that light your remarks look pretty Clintonesque - accusing me of the very thging you are guilty in order to draw attention away from that fact. I dont say anything is wrong with the seas tweeter. I beleive the vociing of that unit in conjunction with the crossover is "wrong" and that has nothing to do with distortion specs at 3 khz. So you have a distortion versus frequency trace - so what? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing it seems. Look at the big picture. Not 0.1 db difference in distortion at 3 khz.

I am well aware you will sell both pmc and atc. I said you are baised about atc as you sell them I didnt say you were baised for atc over pmc ;-).

Yours is sales speil - good spiel but spiel nonetheless. Unquestioning acceptance of tech specs without really seeing the big picture or understanding R&D. Being able to quote tech specs and drop a few terms in doesnt equal understanding.

You ordered the "slam dunk" pizza - it just got delivered. I hope you like the free garlic bread.

Ah Brizonbiovizier,

Well your attempt at slam dunk came up a bit short. And all I wanted was a temperment of your earlier comments about the ATC's and I think I got it, thank you.

Voicing differences I can accept, and I'll never get through to you because you know so little about speakers. But keep up the R&D, your better than average you just have a few wires crossed.

I will tell you this for future reference, I'm not a salesman and I have done more R&D than you have, especially in audio. SO just be careful because our conversaation never got above elementary for me and I lost you when I went JR High on you..

PS: Try not to confuse the TL superiority over Ported systems with superiority over sealed box systems. Oh and I almost forgot my scientific response, "2pi loading" Been fun.

Just because you say it came up short doesnt mean it did. You just stated that to be the case but provided no comments to back that assertion other than an irrelevent comment on rear wall reinforcement. Your response is just empty wind blowing. If it came up short then proove why.

There is no temperment of my earlier comments. They still stand unmodulated.

You have no idea how much R&D I have done thank you. More empty supposition on your behalf. You are a dealer therefore you are a salesman. If the conversation never got above elementary for you then show me the next level. You have failed to do so far. I await that respsonse with a high degree of anticipation.

"2pi" loading is not a scientific response to my arguments (most of which you have ingored as you have no answer). It is a simple statement of the loading effects of rear wall placement. My comments apply to sealed box as they do to ported designs. While sealed boxes do stiffen the mechanical resposnse of the bass unit they do not do so in as effective a manner as TL loading and also do not provide as effective bass performance. "acoustic impedance matching" - look it up. Anyway, as you may recall this discussion concerned the treble - not rear wall reinforcement. Do you have an answer for my rationale regarding anechoic measurement v in real room treble reponse given the observed treble lift? Nope not a word.

In summary empty bluster and a single irrelevent and inaccurate technical remark. And a lot of unsubstantiated "yo mama" waffle about how much higher your level is than mine.

The ball went through the hoop and its caught on camera - talk is cheap. You know more about speakers? Proove it. So far all your comments proove the opposite and I have given reasons to back my claims up. Try doing the same. I look forward to being educated.

Oki, thanks for all replies!
But please, Bri and Cine - why all these "hot feelings"?!
You both seems to know a whole lot of speakers,
but try to it cooler discussing.
No offense guys!
Anyway, i'm most thankful for all of the answers.
I got one more question though..
I've heard the IB-2 and liked it, i guess their are more great TL speakers out there!?
Any tips for me, other manufacturers to look in to?