Preamp Deal of the Century

slowhand:

i've exchanged a few emails with mick regarding the dac he is working on. price point he had in mind was about $500 max which is an excellent price if it's up to the level of his preamps. he didn't mention it being tubed though he did related that it's non-oversampling with a unique i/v stage and output. unfortunately, i recently acquired a 47 labs shigaraki transport and dac. still, i might give the supratek dac a try whenever it surfaces.

kevin t

Your room is a bit small, so I am thinking monitors or small footprint full range speakers. For the latter, maybe VR 4jrs or Vandy 2ce sigs and a 2WQ sub. Used, either of those would keep you well under budget. At $3.5k for a tube amp, you could get a used, stock Berning ZH-270, or nice pair of Cary monoblocks if you end up with high eff. speakers. Check w/Bobby @ Merlin as to whether your room is too small for the VSMs. He will be happy to talk to you even if you are looking in the used market. If not, the Supratek/Berning/Merlin combo is generally highly regarded in these parts. There is a VAC tube amp that is for sale now, that you could team with 2ce sigs and still stay w/in your budget of $3.5K and stay under budget.

Hi Swampwalker, thanks for your comments.
Frankly, I thought so too... that's why I decided to upgrade all my components. I can't wait to change everything in one go but there are other considerations in life other than audio, although it's my second love after my wife and children. Over the past 18 months, I've patiently changed my CD player, preamp and cables (to Audience PowerChord and AU24 system-wide). I'll eventually change my amp and speakers too but I only have one chance with each because of WAF and $$$! After the upgrades, I would have to wait a few more years before bringing up the upgrade subject to my other half. While waiting, I would just have fun and enjoy what I have and could affford. Hehehe...
Please recommend matching speakers and amp (preferably tube) that would go well with the rest of my other components?

Have you guys heard that Mick is working on a Tube DAC. If Mick is on the case, there may be hope for CD's yet.

I'm not familiar with your amp, but the speakers are definately not up to the level of your pre and source electronics.

Hey Ecclectique, thanks for your information.
Hey guys, I need your advice.
My current system is Marantz SA-14 ver 2 SACD player, Supratek Chardonnay preamp (arriving this week), Perreaux E220 SS amp, Mirage M7si speakers. My music preferences are vocals (Eva Cassidy, Mary Black, Norah Jones, Diana Krall, Aaron Neville, etc), jazz (Dave Brubeck Quartet, LA4, Ray Brown Trio, guitar, etc) and some classical. Room size: 10 x 10 x 9 feet high. Right side has an opening, leading to the dining room of 15 x 10 x 9 feet high. I am contemplating to change either my amp or speakers over the next 6-12 months, after I've saved enough.
Question is: which one (amp or speakers) should I change first that will make the greater impact to the sound? I'm leaning towards a tube amp although many audiogoners have suggested that speakers make the most difference. Budget $3500. Thanks.

Hey Rabelais. A very appropriate analogy and very well said sir. Phase splitters are antiquated, inappropriate and should never even be considered part of the equation in the design of high resolution vacuum tubed circuits.

Hi Ecclectique--most interesting. Sometimes it seems like half of high fidelity audio can be attributed to half a dozen extremely impressive individuals. I was cued into the 6922/6BQ7 sub in Roger Modjeski's "Manufacturer's Comment" to the 2002 Stereophile review (http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/560/index8.html). The relevant context is this excerpt:

Through my research, I determined that the much-maligned Chinese 6550 was capable of the highest peak-cathode currents of any 6550 available, and about 1.5 times higher than the venerated Genelex KT88. Once the grid-leakage problem was solved through the driver design, it was full speed ahead with the Chinese tubes. Granted, I have to toss quite a few, but far fewer now that my driver circuit can tolerate grid leakage. As to rolling the driver tube, if you like the 6922 or its higher-current 6H30 version, go ahead, the circuit won't mind—though in this application I prefer the 6BQ7 for its ruggedness, less delicate grid, and higher current. Just be sure the DC is matched in the two sections, as it is directly coupled to the output grids. We want to keep the bias balance within 10% in the output tubes.

I take good note that a 6922/6BQ7 is *not* a general substitution.

There is something a little more interesting going on here. Pre-amps like the Supratek that use 6SN7s and 6L6s are fertile platforms to rolling; there is no question that NOS tubes elevate the performance. But the KT88 is a desert for rolling; there is the GEC/Genelex and Tung Sol 6550--which can put you back $1K+ for the quad--or about half a dozen current productions that are more similar than different (JJ, Electro-Harmonix, Svetlana, Sovtek, Shuguang, etc.). So Roger's approach somewhat anticipated--in philosophy, but not in implementation--that of the H-cat; i.e., superb reproduction occurs (some would say demands) exacting control of balance and phase. This minimizes left/right and time smear, and results in the correct delivery of those higher-order harmonics and slight time delays that differentiate middle-C on a cello, from that on a high-school violin, from that of a Stradivarius. This is not what we do explicitly when we roll NOS, but perhaps some would say that implicitly this is what is happening, and that this is what separates the WE's and GEC's from the Sovteks.

Hi Rabelais. I have always been a fan of Roger Modjeski's progressive vacuum tube design, he has always been a pioneer in the audio industry. If memory serves, Modjeski was the first audio engineer to employ the 6dj8/6922 dual triode in an audio circuit and bring it to market. Infact...from it's inception, the 6922/6dj8 was never really designed for use in audio amplification as it was primarily used in early vacuum tubed computers.In those days, the 12ax7 and 12at7 dual triodes were the audio industry's standard tube, and they were employed for gain in line stages as well as phono stages.At the time...With the rapidly growing popularity of the extremely low output Moving Coil cartridges[typically below .5mv] It was quickly realized that the gain of the 12au7 family of tubes was inadequate for driving these cartridges without experiencing tube rush or noise. Roger was instrumental in implementing the higher gain of the 6922 family of tubes in audio circuits and almost every company in the high end industry followed suit and embraced the use of that tube. That said: I wasn't aware you could swap the 6bq7 driver for a 6922, as they are really quite different electrically. Unless he has configured the driver stage of the amplifier to use the tube in a cascaded type configuration or unity gain,then perhaps you could sub it[but why?] Do "NOT" try substituting a 6bq7 for the 6922 in your supratek as your just asking for trouble here!!! Trust me here.... even if it will amplify the signal, it will surely sound wrong. The same goes for any other amp or preamp employing a 6922 for amplifying the signal. Regarding the 6f6g's in the supratek.... if they are new right out of the box..... give em 20 to 30 hours of run in time to come into their own. The early 1940's Sylvania 6L6g's are very good regulators in the supratek [bottle shaped versions]and great sounding output tubes as well.

Thanks Ecclectique. You're probably aware that Roger Modjeski uses the 6BQ7 as the driver for the Music Reference RM-200, and he has been quoted as saying that you can drop in a 6922 as a sub in that application. I want to preserve the finesse of the Supratek down the chain, so I'm looking for NOS in that driver position. I'm all too aware that substitutions are not necessarily transitive (i.e., sub a 6N23EV for 6922 and a 6922 for a 6BQ7 doesn't necessarily imply subing a 6N23EV for a 6BQ7, but ... ).

P.S. Finally got around to dropping in 6F6G's in place of the 1940's Sylvania 6L6GA's as regulators in the Supratek. It's too early to site differences, but certainly an excellent tube in that position.

Hi Rabelais. No... The 6n23ev and 6n32eb are a substitute for a 6922/6dj8.

Is the 6N23EV a drop-in replacement for the 6BQ7?

Amandarae ,Thanks for the info.

Stiltskin,

The tubestore.com sells the 6n23 tubes. (http://www.thetubestore.com/rus696h.html)

I have not tried it yet since I have lots of 6922's. The M8080 is hard to find but do shows up at ebay once in a while usually from a European seller. I read that locally Conrad Johnson have stocks of this tube since they use it on their new preamps. Maybe you can get a pair from them.

I am waiting for the Sylvania Gold that I won in the auction the other day (GB6135). From my notes dated June 2004, I jotted down that I "need to stock this tubes because it is superb in the Supratek,fully balance sound...etc...etc." I will confirm that when I receive the tubes and will let others be aware who uses 6C4's on the phono preamp.

regards

Sorlowski. to drive the thiels you will want a high-current SS amp. Something that doubles down into a 2 ohm load. Personally, for that speaker I think a high damping factor works best. The Parasound amp Slowhand mentioned will work. I use the Sim Audio W-5 to drive my Thiels. Other possibilities include Plinius, Pass Labs, and Blue Circle.

Ecclectique and Amandarae,Good to read more about tube switching in the phono section. I just took delivery of a vpi scoutmaster with options afew weeks ago. Shocking good through my Chenin,I have not switched the tubes in the phono section yet.I need some directions finding the Mullard m8080 and the Russian 6n23ev,I appreciate that.

Hello,

I just won an auction for a Sylvania Gold Brand gold pins 6c4 (GB6135). I used to have a pair of this tube but misplaced them when I moved. From what I can remember, they sound great in the Supratek phono section as well. I will compare it to the Mullard M8080 and report back.

Happy Holidays!

Sorlowski, I have a friend that owns a pair of Parasound JC-1's. They are very powerful (400 wpc) and have tons of current. He is using them with Soundlab M1's and they sound great (very close to the sound of tubes). They would have no problem running your Thiels.

Sorlowski.A tall order indeed,although that pairing would definately not make good match with your thiels. I would seek out a high powered ss amp with big current delivery, preferrably on the warmish side of the fence. The big VTL's or perhaps a few other high powered tube amps may possibly be up to the task however, One should always try them first to be certain. best of luck.

Ecclectique,

Thanks for the advice and the compliment. Yep! it seems that the GE's that I have are the crappy ones.

I will look for the 6n23ev tubes. Hopefully I can experience their sonic character on the Supratek.

Yes, I agree that the Mullard 8080 is a cut above the other 6c4's I tried. Although my experience is that they have to be run for sometime before they show their true colors. At first when I got them, my impression was that they are quiet but the sonics are about average. After sometime (50 hours or so)playing music with them, they finally arrived! Piano and horns becomes full and with just the right extension, at least for me.

Thanks again!

Ecclectique,
You have said that Cary 805c and Supartek are "is a marriage made in heaven". But there is one problem for me, Cary is only 50W, and in the future I'm going to have big room (>400sq feet) and I like listen to big orchestras on decent level. My speakers are power hungry inefficient Thiels 3.6. I'm afraid that even strong tube watts in amount of 50 will not suffice. And I have heard Manley a few times I only so far have liked better them Manley expensive behind my reach electronics (like VAC or LAMM). And it is 250W at the some price, yes I know it is not SET but some people claims that for big music SET is not the best choice ...
What do you think ?

Hi Gang. Ethifi.... congrats sir and let the chardonnay run in for a good couple of hundred hours before tube rolling. You will be impressed right out of the box. A couple of hundred hours of run in time allows the passive circuit parts,wire and the transformer windings to settle in. Amandadarae...a great system sir and I can see a lot of time and thought went into putting it together... always love to see another great vinyl rig too. After reading about your previous wright preamp I can almost hear the musical "voice" of your system....you have good ears sir. Regarding the GE 6c4...Any of other GE 6c4 versions were just awful except for the 80's vintage versions. I believe Conrad Johnson still have select stock of these in inventory. I have to say I was not too impressed with the tone of the Tung sol's[hard treble range] and never really tried the triple mica Raytheon as the mullard m8080 won hands down. Furthermore.... The circuits I was playing with [organ amps and guitar amps] could never be considered high resolution amplifying devices like that found in a good phono stage. I did dig out my previous notes I had made on this tube. I had spent some time voicing a friend's Conrad Johnson PV 14 back in the early 90's and came to the same conclusion.... The mullard m8080 wins hands down.I have kept records that date back to the early 70's regarding the tubes used for voicing my own equipment as well as the stuff I've repaired or modified. I am not surprised with your choice of the telefunken e88cc in the phono stage. No doubt you have had previous experience with this tube type.The telefunken and the seimen cca are the very best of that family and by a wide margin I might add. If that particular tube does not seem that critical in the supratek's phono stage [as indicated in your last post] others here that do not wish to pay the insane price's those tubes currently command... may want to try the nos russian military tube in it's place. The 6n23ev is a terrific tube for use in a phono stage. It is dead quiet, accurate, great bass resolution, extremely well balanced top to bottom and consistently has the tightest matched triode sections of any manufactured brand of this family of tube. "Note"... It is not to be confused with the icy glare of the current commercial Sovtec 6dj8/6922 now being used in just about every piece of modern amplifiacation. The 6n23ev's were developed strictly for the russian military and were not even known to exist until the end of the Cold War and the demise of the Big Red Machine. There are surplus stock of this tube floating around.They are very inexpensive relative to most nos examples. Search them out, you will be impressed.

Hi Ecclectique & Amandarae, thanks for your valuable input. I am going to get the Mullard CV4058 and try them out. My Chenin was stocked with RCA 6C4 and they are the only stock tubes remain on the unit. I have no idea of how the other 6C4 sounds so I am going to give a try. Frankly speaking how big is the difference betweem the 6C4 model and the later one using 6J6?

Thanks again!

My new Chardonnay will be arriving next week.
Can't wait to experience first hand what you guys have been saying all along.
Hey, we have the "Preamp Deal of the Century".
What would be your personal choice for "Amp Deal of the Century" and "Speaker Deal of the Century"?

I have 6c4's on my Chenin. The JAN Phillips that comes with stock is reasonable.

At present, I am using the M8080 Mullard tubes. Very quiet and I am not having any microphonic issues. I posted a while back about several 6C4 tubes I tried in the Supratek. Up to now, I am still convince that they are the "money" tubes on the phono section of the Chenin and not the 6922's. Although I am using a Telefunken on the 6922 position, my observation was that the 6C4 gives immediate feedback as to the tonal quality of the phono section when trying different varities. I rolled 6 pairs of different manufacturers of 6922's and I end up getting confused trying to identify if there's an improvement doing so. Maybe there was but I cannot comment on which was the best tube for me on this position from my experoment. Whereas the 6C4, as I said, the difference was immediate!

My recommendations as of today are (in order of being the "best" in my system) as follows:

Mullard M8080 (so far the best for me!)
Raytheon Triple Mica
National Union (looks like an RCA)Black Plates
RCA
Tungsol

What I found a waste of time are:

Motorola
Crosley
RCA Gray Plates
G.E. (maybe not the same type as Ecclectique is refering to)

Hi Ecmlee. I wasn't aware that Mick had chosen the 6c4 in the chenin.My understanding is mick had implemented the common 6922/6dj8,s along with the 6j6 for phono gain in the new chenin .The 6c4 is no longer being produced so I would assume Mick has a supply of nos tubes.What brand of 6c4 is in yours? The 6c4 is 7 pin single triode or basically 1/2 of a 12au7 dual triode. He probably selected this tube for it's superior linearity over the common 12au7. The 12au7 and deratives are rather mediocre sounding valves for use in high end audio circuits[especially phono stages]. That said: The 6c4 is notorious for being microphonic. I have repaired a few guitar amps as well as some older organ amps that used a 6c4. I think that Conrad Johnson also used the 6c4 in a few of their earlier PV series preamps if I recall???? The euro equivalent would be an ec-90. Mullard made a box plate version called the m-8080, this is a good sounding tube. Other equivalents for rolling the 6c4 would be a 6135 or a 6100.Because the 6c4 is prone to be microphonic and had me pulling out my hair on more than 1 occasion[read too many]. Are you experiencing any microphonics? I found the 1980's GE 6c4[grey plate] the least microphonic and most consistent of the bunch, however I preferred the extension and tone of the mullard 8080. Conrad Johnson should have a good supply of selected 6c4's. Hope this helps. cheers and all the best.

Hey guys, any recommedation on the 6C4 for Chenin? Cheers~

Just picked up a Music Reference RM-200 to amp a Chardonnay, using a half-recipe of Chris VH Cat-5 to drive Hales Revelation 2s. The RM-200 has 8, 4, 2, and 1 Ohm taps, with a hybrid design that allows the lower taps to produce successively *more* power (contrary to most amps) and rely increasing heavily on the pre's amplification; i.e., using a lower tap shifts the total (amp + pre amp) amplification more towards the pre, requiring less from the amp's KT-88s. In the Chardonnay I'm using a 1955 Mullard CV 378 (GZ-37) rectifier, 1940's era Sylvania 6L6GA regulators, and 1940's era Ken-Rad Black Glass VT-231 line tubes.

With a tube CDP source, high end extension is very good, with sweet harmonics, a delicate, long decay on bells, and a "splash" on cymbals; mid-range has a true tube bloom, but not too much; mid-bass is tight and crisp, and bass, while perhaps not the absolute end-all in SS composure, is still quite good and low and strong enough to be felt through my feet when sitting six feet away with no sub-woofer. All this collapses if the source is not well mastered (more the rule than the exception) or if the volume is at a background listening level (sound is then very good, but--presumably in part due to the Fletcher-Munson effect--not at its best). I think improvements can be made in depth and soundstage, but I'll look at the room and isolation tweaks to try to capture that.

All-in-all, a nice synergy with the Supratek.

Dear Slowhand,

Thank you for starting this thread. I decided to order a Chardonnay preamp in June 2004 after reading the review in 6moons.com and the enormous information in this thread. I received my unit in September and has been listening to it for over 2 months. I think it is time for me to join in the discussion and assure those who is still hesitating. I am using a system that is quite high end : Watt/ puppy6 + Emmlabs mod Philips SACD 1000/ DAC6 combo, Melody 2A3 Push-pull monoblocks. Preamp I had owned previously included ARC SP9, Convergent SL1 signature, Matisse reference, Marantz7 (remake) and lastly Nagra PLP. I have been using Nagra for a few years and it is an excellent Pre. It is expansive too, over 3 times that of Chardonnay. I cannot say Chardonnay is a better preamp than Nagra, but I can say I am not missing Nagra in my system (the Nagra is still in hand) and have no temptation to re-connect it since the arrival of Chardonnay. It is enough at the moment. I will write about my experience with Chardonnay when there is time.

YW

Slipknot and mondie. Congrats and enjoy the ride. cheers David

Congratulations to both Mondie and Slipknot 1 on recieving your preamps. I have had my Syrah for about two and a half year (ever since I started the thread) and I still get excited every time I power my system up. I feel that all of my components are very good, but the Syrah is the heart and soul of my system. I am sure you guys will have a blast listening to your favorite music. Be sure to pass on the the new guys considering a Supratek that the wait is well worth it.

Hi Kenji. Yes, think of both the genelex kt-66 and the we 350b's as an investment. The genelex kt-66 is a much sought after output tube and it's market value has near doubled in the last 3 years. [ they ain't making anymore!!] cheers David

Hi Ecclectique, I got a pair of smoke glass Genalex KT-66 today. I just couldn't resist the opportunity even though the 350B's are the best. However, the Genelex is only half the price of the NU 350B's.

Cheers,
Kenji

Hi all,

l am so impressed with my Cabernet l am wondering what Micks power amps are like. Could they be as good, even half as good will do? l have started another thread here;
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1101532226&read&3&4&

Please post your experiences.

Cheers Simon

I have been looking and looking and looking for everything this preamp seems to do. After spending about the life of this thread reading researching and wishing for the right components I have emailed Mick in hopes of procuring a Chenin for myself. I plan on upgrading my amp as well.
Any votes for favorite 300b SET to team up with this pre? As all accounts do tell i will have quite a wait to find one!
This has got to be the best testament for good ol' word of mouth.

Hey Kenji. Na.... you better send those NU 350b's to me and I'll send you a fresh pair of 6f6g's. The 350b's are the undisputed heavyweight champions of all time. They float like a butterfly and sting like a bee! It just doesn't get any better! Enjoy!

Thanks Eccletique! And congrats Mondie & Slipknot1! The Genelex KT-66's are expensive! Since I already have a pair of NU 350B, I will stick to these tubes and unless anyone can tell me the NU 350B is no match for the Sylania 6F6g or Genelex KT-66.

Tubes that I have acquired so far (all NOS):

Mullar 5AR4 (small black base)
NU 350B
STC 6SN7GTY

Well, I'm still waiting for my Cabernet...

Kenji

Joe,

I thought I had, my mistake! He did say that he have some other brands, but I am looking for just the Sylvania. Oh well, it does not change the fact that they are very-very good regulator tubes on the Supratek.

Happy thanksgiving to all!

Abe,

You didn't get the last pair, I just got 4 more! He said they were used, but 3 test NOS. Just no boxes. The other set test ok, but one has some rattles. So I'm set for life.

Mondie & Slipknot,

I hope you don't have big plans for T-day. It sounds like you may be spending the day enjoying your new toys with your turkey. I can't wait to hear what you think of the PX4.

Happy Thanksgiving!!

Joe

Congrats Mondie, Slipknot1!

Like what Cello said, buckle up and the journey is about to begin!

Yes, Ecclectique is absolutely on the money with the bottle shaped 6f6g. I bought a pair and compared it to my "use to be" favorite regulators (GEC Gold Lion and GEC regular KT-66). No contest! I saw Joe's(jphii) post above and got the last pair from David. Eureka! The Gold Lion and regular GEC are now cash money (courtesy of ebay) for the holidays!

From my experienced, the Sylvania black glass (Green label)6F6G (ST type)should be named "Mandatory Supratek Regulator Tubes"!

Happy thanksgiving to all!

l received my Cabernet last week with the PX4's revsion and am blown away by it. Like Slipknot l upgraded from an ARC SP9 Mkll and cannot believe how much difference this pre has made to my system. Music has never been so natural, involving and relaxing. It looks dead sexy to. Believe the hype!

Its so good its got me wondering what Mick's power amps are like, anybody here heard or own one?

Cheers

Hey Kenji. Yes sir, one of the best. Even better if you already have a pair to put in the preamp. Otherwise, I would suggest searching for a pair of the bottle shaped 6f6g's at approximately 25% of the genelex as they are every bit as good if not better. Enjoy your thanksgiving down there gang.

Genelex KT-66 (smoke glass) for power regulation -> Are they really good? BTW, Happy Thanks Giving to all Supratek Owners!

Cheers,
Kenji

Congrats Slipnot,
.
I am delighted that you got your Supratek before the long weekend.
.
Try not to pay some attention to your family on Thanksgiving.
.
Have a blast. It will get so much better in a couple hundred hours......and just wait till you roll some NOS in there. You are in for quite a nice ride.
.
Enjoy.
.

I've had my Supratek for all of about 6 hours now, and I can say that pictures DO NOT do this thing justice! Audio jewlery is an understatement. Beautiful fit and finish. I am not going to even consider tube rolling for a couple of hundred hours until I get a handle on this thing. It is so far superior AND different than the ARC SP 9 mkII it replaced. Initial impressions are of far more weight to the music, wider swings in dynamics, massive soundstage and that seductive sound that no hybrid or solid state preamp can accomplish. This thing is truely a giant killer. Thanks guys for turning me on to this. A big thank you to Mick Maloney for giving the world this beautiful looking and sounding product.

Hello Sorlowski. I have never heard the manley neoclassic, however.... The 805c's partnered with the supratek is a marriage made in heaven. Far and away the best combo I've ever heard in my rig. They really seem to compliment each other in a synergistic way. The superb clarity and bass speed of the supratek seems to offset the rather soft and bloomy bottom end of the cary. The midbass/lower bass performance of the cary 805c is it's only real liabilty in my books, and surely must be considered one of the finest sounding amplifiers of all time. I'm still kicking myself for selling my pair, especially after hearing them again with a kr 300bxl driver tube[instead of the stock chineese 300b] Man..... what a revelation that was! Unfortunately... I didn't have my supratek at that time to hear this combo sing together. Bet you can't guess what my next pair of amps will be?

Have somebody tried Supratek with Manley NeoClassic 250 ?
Would it sound better (more dynamic, open, tuneful) them with Cary 805c ?

Hello,

Anybody using their Supratek with BAT VK series (particularly the VK100 and the like) or Krell KSA series?

Comments/suggestions will be greatly appreciated!
Speakers are Magnepan 1.6QR.

Thanks!

Jumpin' Jehosaphat! My wife just called me at work to tell me the Chenin has arrived at our doorstep! I'm going home at lunch to unpack my new toy.....

Not many of these pieces show up used - about how many Supratek pre-amps have been sold in the good ole' USA? I guess they're so good no one ever lets them go?