Preamp Deal of the Century

Saint2 - You don't mention your musical tastes and what you want from your system.

I have a Chenin on the way, and would like to know what the thoughts are on interconnects and speaker cables. The amp would be a ss Bel Canto, and the speakers are Meadowlarks. I would pose the question under the cables section, but this is where the knowledge is when it comes to Suprateks.

Regards Tim

Thanks Ecclectique, great information, like allways.

Hello Jpms. I have both NU 350b's and Western Electric 350b's and cannot hear any differnce between them when used for regulator duty in the supratek. As many of you well know,the 350b was never really designed for regulation duty as it was traditionally used as an output tube, and when used as an output tube in an amplifier,it is without any doubt...the king of the 6L6 family of tubes. That said: I cannot hear any difference when used as an output tube either. Like most Western Electric vacuum tubes,the name itself will command premium money.If one can find the NU labeled 350b's at a decent price........grab em while you can! Hey gang..... It is like good real estate, *they ain't making anymore* Cheers

Larry,

Sounds good. The sellar has included a bunch of tubes with the Syrah. He told me his preferences out of what he has. I've read the thread and there seems to be a consensus on which tubes sound "best".

Any help would be most apreciated!

Joe

Anyone measure AC polarity as reversed on their Supratek ?

I have 8 month old Chardonnay and today did polarity check as having ground hum issue.

1. did polarity check on FIM wall outlet. It is correctly wired.
2. disconnected every cable from every audio item
3. used cheater plug
4. measured chassis voltage ( AC ) with cheater plugged in both ways
5. Chardonnay had noticeable difference in chassis "leakage" between cheater plug being plugged in correctly and reversed. The "reversed" position was signficanly lower. per Bound for Sound article, use lower voltage as best way to plug in equipment

Pioneer 45A DVD/SACD player had noticeable voltage difference but only 50% of Supratek. And Pioneer polarity was ok.

Dodd 50W power amp was next to impossible to determine as voltage readings ( less than 1 V ) were essentially the same.

In my opinion, deHavilland Ultraverve preamp is also considered a killer at the retail price of USD$2500.00 with lush sound and dynamic. I will also definitely suggest any custom made preamp with "true zero-feedback" (I mean real true zero feedback) is the best preamp with a reasonable price but it is still a killer preamp.

Hey Ecclectique, could you tell me if there is any difference in sound between the WE350b and the NU350b?.
Thanks!.

.
Hi Joe (Jphii)
.
We are in a similar but reversed situation. I have a Supratek Cortese (line & phono stage) pre-amp and have ordered a Teres 340 table that should show up in late May/June. You are going to love the Syrah.

Tube choices have a huge effect on maximizing the sound. I would be happy to share my experiences with you. You can email me directly if you like.
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Larry
.

found out last week that the tj101d has a ux-4 base, like the 300b. the we101d has a uv-4 base. the two bases do not fit the same socket. so right now, there is no way we101d will play in Mick's cabernet/grange. something to consider.

yamamoto makes a special teflon socket which has 8 holes instead of 4 and will support both uv-4 and ux-4 bases.

Thanks Stiltskin!

Hello Amandarae,Not yet...I will let you know right away when Mick contacts me... Keep Smiling!!!

Well, after reading this thread many times, I finally bought a Syrah. It will be here on Tuesday. I got the one listed here with the copper top & covers (Thanks Vade!). I can't wait to get it started in my system. Being way biased toward vinyl, I can't wait to hear it played without a step up tranny. One less signal path!

So, I guess I just wanted to let all of the other owners out there know to get ready for more dumb questions! Don't worry, I've read the thread enought to keep away from things already covered. But, I'm shure I'll figure out something no one has come across, and need a little help.

I'll let you know how it matches with the rest of my system.

Joe's Teres

Thanks

Paging Stiltskin!

Have you receive your preamp yet?

hey Clipsal. The WE 350b's, though very expensive...are a terrific investment and will only appreciate in value. I concurr with your assessment regarding the bloomy bottom octave when paired with the Kenrads. You must be running full range speakers.You will find the tungsol rounds a little leaner on the bottom end with the 350b's. Very system dependent over-all, especially for those using full range speakers that have extension into the bottom octave. For those with stand mounted monitors or speakers with a leaner bass weight...The Kenrads would only be a big plus.I recently visited a friend with my syrah in tow. He is running a pair of stand mounted proac response 2's and an el-34 based amp.I am was using the early sylvania metal base 6sn7 with the 350b's in my Syrah. Substituting the Ken's in place of the sylvania's really made his system sing in a big way.It added more weight or a foundation to the overall presentation and worked magically with the proacs. I was "mesmerized" with this set up...captured both of us for many hours into the evening. Those proacs really make beautiful music!

Clipsal,
.
The changes you should get from the break-in on a NIB tube should be quite large. I found that it took about 150 - 200 hours to see some real results. I would love to hear how your 350b's turn out.
.
I have a pair of Mullard 37's that are terrific but are tempted to check out the 350b's with all I have heard from everyone.
.

I just recieved a pair of NIB WE 350B's today and installed the insanely priced tubes in place of the 6F6G's, currently in service.

Ecclectique is correct, the 6F6G sound very similar to the 350B's with the real difference being a slightly less glorified bass and mid range treatment as noticed on the 6F6G's. It does seem on the surface, that the 350B's tend to have a little more detail, but proper burn-in time will really tell the story. Please note, do not take this comments as gospal as this result is system dependant and also very much dependant on speaker placement in the room. By moving my listening position around 3 feet forward resulted in less of booming effect as noticed with both the 6F6g's and the WE 350B. The booming effect is most likely due to the listening position, where the rear lounge is placed up against the back wall, thus amplifying the bass effect.

So, are the 350B's worth 8 times the asking price of the 6F6G's. Probably not, but don't let that stop you. Try it for yourself, your milage may vary.

Having said that, I still find the lower treble to be a little weak and the bass still not as tight as it could be. This Phenomena is probably due to the Ken Rad VT-231 Black Glass. I've ordered a pair of Tung Sol Round Plates as suggested by Cello, and they should arrive in the land down under in around 10 days. I'll keep you posted as to the results.

I think it's time to seriously start rotating the various tubes in my collection, to hit upon the magic sound I'm looking for, which is probably the same as everyone else's holy grail, Brillant highs, rich mids with strong, deep tight bass.

Note: Tubes Currently on duty in Sauvignon:

Rectifier: Mullard GZ34
Regulator: WE 350B was using 6F6G (Sylvania Green Letters)
6SN7 : Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Slipknot- I had an SP9Mk2 in my system not too far before I got my Syrah. Its a VERY significant improvement to the Syrah. Can't even imagine what the Chenin will do. You should be a very happy camper. You can use the waiting time to shop for some NOS tubes.

Erik,
As I said, I just ordered mine last night, a Chenin that will be customized to the input impedence of my amps. Mick took a 500.00 deposit with the balance due on completion. Not sure how long the wait will be, I'm guessing several months anyway. Judging by what I am hearing about the Sryah/Chenin, the Cortese would have to be way over the top better to justify the much larger price. Never heard either so I am buying based on what I've read, but a 2500.00 pre that offers this kind of performance just might border on being a world beater. Plus - the looksand build are are great bonus too.

I have been reading this thread off and on for the last several months. I have to admit I am very interested and indeed considering one of Mick's pre's. I was curious if anyone has an opinion whether the Cortese is that much better (for the money) than the Chenin (Syrah)?

Also, how does payment work? Does Mick require payment in full at order time or is it 50/50 or something like it?

Anyone compared these to the VTL 2.5 and 5.5's?

Thanks,

Erik

After following this thread for quite some time, I have jumped on the bandwagon. After emailing back and forth with Mick, last night I ordered the Chenin with a bit of custom work to change the output tube in order to better mate with the input impedence on my amps. Mick is an amazing and very acommodating gentleman. I was able to get in the line for a new Chenin at the pre April 1st price increase, and only an additional 100.00 charge for the custom work. I am going to TRY to wait patiently for it's arrival and not pester Mick about how long it will take to get here. Judging from what everyone is saying, the phono will blow away my ARC SP 9 MKII phono stage. I am so impressed by how the units look as well. They are works of art.

Jazzdude,

Thanks for the heads up! At least now I have a perspective on what to expect approaching the final phase of the waiting game.

Thanks again, and I am pretty sure you are having a blast with your Cabernet!

cheers....

Information on the possible upgrade Syrah/Chenin:

Mick told me in a e-mail that it would be a big job to put the new design into a Syrah. It would entail a complete rebuild of the phono section and would be very expensive, probably to the point of not being worthwhile.

He´s trying, though, to think of a way to upgrade the Syrahs without too much expense- has a few ideas and hopes to have a solution soon.

Amandarae - patience... I think it took over 6 weeks for me to get my Cabernet after Mick started building it. He started building it in the middle of January and I got it on March 8.

Yeheey, yeheey!!!!!

Stiltskin's pre is about to be completed and ship! That means mine will be next (if not second or third)!!! I ordered a few days after him!!

Congrats Stiltskin! Please update us about your impressions once you have the Chenin in your system!!!

Aaahhhhh, Patience is a virtue but time moves soooo slow when you are waiting.......

On the positive side, it's a good thing to know that although I am waiting, I am waiting for something great!

cheers....

Ecclectique et al: Thanks for your kind remarks and helpful comments. Count me as another prospective Supratek owner. Yep, I just ordered a Syrah (Chenin).

As with other comments in this thread, this buying unheard, is a leap of faith, but one, I have a fairly high level of confidence in. I first tried Harmonic Tech cables well before any periodical advertisements, or reviews simply based on “internet word of mouth” and was very satisfied with them until a local Engineer/Audiophile acquaintance fabricated his own, for which I became quite smitten, and replaced my HT’s .

Internet “word of month” also prompted my audition of the Audio Resolution Opus 21 CDP. Albeit expensive, it’s a wonderful machine for its price point (and lives up to its “Resolution” name), and if I didn’t get a really good deal on a Wadia 861, I would have kept the Opus 21.

With that said, I hope the results of my purchase are as positive as everyone’s herein. I intend to re-read all the posts about tube rolling and start contemplating doing same.

Additionally, I intend to research turntable and cartridge combinations, and if as I requested above, anyone is of the mind to share some of their insights regarding $2-3K (+/- within reason) combinations, I would be quite grateful ..Cheers, Mike

Tubegroover. The phono stage of the syrah is truly outstanding,and very flexible regarding cartridge choices.Due to the higher gain and loading flexibilty in the syrah, It will better the cat,the sp-10 and the lumi when using mc cartridges with outputs below .5 mv. I have run the phono stages of every one of them through the line of the syrah. Higher output coils or magnets are another story as each one of the above pre's have top shelf phono stages that are very engaging and incredibly good by anybody's standards. My cartridge of choice is the Koetsu rosewood [circa 1980] that I recently had rebuilt by Koetsu. While it was being rebuilt,I used either a denon 103,shelter 501 [briefly] or the low output grado reference[.5mv]. With the denon[.25mv]the syrah won hands down.With the Koetsu,I do preferr the phono stage of the both the sp-10 mk2 or the lumi when loaded below 100 ohms and run through the line of the syrah.With the shelter however...I much preferred the syrah with the cat coming in a close second.The grado sounded simply wonderful through each and every one of them,but did have more weight and the tightest bass through the phono of the syrah.Comparing the phono stage of the supratek to these other great phono stages is not only a testiment to its credibilty but was a revelation of sorts to me and the main reason why I think it has no real competition at it's given price point. Given it's phono stage flexibilty and oustanding line stage all in one package......It is stupid good and really a no brainer!!!!! Mike... There is no doubt in my mind that the Wadia is at a whole higher level than my humble sony cd player,........however.....be prepared to be mesmerized with the analogue experience if your thinking of going there...I'd take bets it will put another big dent in the old savings account once you hear it in that fabulous system of yours.

I feel like I won an audio lottery of some sort...Finding out last summer about Audiogon... Coming across preamp deal of the century,and especially what Mick had to say on his web site...Many thanks to many audio savvy members...All of this has sent me into a new direction putting a system together,building one around a great preamp instead of a front end...And finally, just learning about Mick installing his upgraded phono section into my Syrah/Chenin has made me SICK with excitment...

Thanks for the cogent and very helpful replies. Indeed, the same should be said for Mick. I e-mailed him just prior to my above submittal to this thread, and he replied in well under FOUR (4) hours -- impressive!

Ecclectique: Thanks for mentioning the Luminescence and the ARC sp-10 mk2. While I have heard neither, based on many recommendations from folks whose judgment I highly respect, both these pre’s along with the CAT pre(s) were on my very short list.

Tubegroover: Interesting you noticed that I didn’t mention a “tt”. My interest in obtaining a pre, is a pending return to vinyl.

While I’ve had a keen interest in audio since my youth, until the last decade or so, I haven’t had the highly resolved system that I now do, and because I wanted CD to be good enough, it simply was. However, with help from friends, and information gleaned from sites such as this, I have a desire to return to spinning vinyl (I still have my entire album collection dating back to the ‘60’s) and wanted a pre with phono that would facilitate that process.

I haven’t a clue as to which medium I will prefer; so my primary interest is to obtain a pre that will do no harm and preferably enhance, my present Wadia 861 experience. Based on all of your comments, and Mick’s, that appears to be more than a given with the Supratek’s.

While it’s possible that I may prefer vinyl, my intent is to initially spend $2-3K on a “tt”. My present thoughts are to obtain a VPI Scout, a Nottingham Interspace, or some other “tt” in this price ballpark. I know “tt”’s are totally off this thread’s subject, but any comments relative to a starter “tt” would be appreciated. I’m wondering whether I should use my budget to buy new or used, any thoughts on, or off-line, would be very appreciated. My last “tt” was a Thorens/Shure V15TypeIII (never had a MC), and was mothballed years ago, so my re-entrance into the LP world is essentially blazing new ground for me, and any suggestions provided would be welcomed.

Getting back to pre’s, the Syrah/Chenin with HT pass-through would appear to be a wonderful choice for my purposes, and especially for the price of admission. While it may not present the ultimate in phono capabilities, I’m certainly not looking for that right now, and perhaps never will, but if the line stage enhances my CD experience as much as I’m told it will, and I can spin some of my old LP’s as well, it would be worth it.

Again thanks for your replies, and the continuation of the never-ending thread Cheers, Mike.

I posted an earlier comment regarding the Synergy of using the Ken Rad Black Glass VT-231 and a pair of Sylvania 6F6G tubes. I commented that the sound although very good was a little too overpowering. With big bassy sound tracks the bass would seem a little bloated with a moderate loss in the tightness of the bass.

Anyway, I've decided to empty my wallets and acquire a pair of NOS WE 350B tubes. They should arrive shortly, upon which I'll provide some feedback as to their performance.

According to Ecclectique, he stated the 6F6G come quite close to the performance of the WE 350B tube. I'm actually hoping that the WE 350B will provide a little more tightness in the bass then the 6F6G. If so, then I believe the 350Bs will provide the type of sound that I'm looking for.

This thread is by far one of the the most interesting postings of any forum, that I've come across in recent years. Let's keep it going.

Mrmb. I have a system very similar to yours and I can confirm you that you´ll get a huge improvement with the Syrah in your rig. I have a Wadia 850 upgraded by Steve Huntley (Great Northern Sound Co.) to the Statement level, the best one, that means that´s a GOOD Wadia. Well, I had it driving directly a pair of Wolcott monoblocks connected to a pair of Sound Lab A1. For a couple of years I thought that it was the best possible sound on earth but... then I decided to try a preamp, and the Supratek Syrah was the choice. I can tell you that there is a big difference in the quality of sound, now the soundscape is bigger, it´s more detailed (it seems odd taking account that there are more cables etc.),the sound is more subtle and much more coherent. Now the music seeems to be a whole giving you a feeling of truth. Never, I mean never will be back to the other configuration. The Syrah is now the heart and soul of my system. Besides, you can modifie the sound to your taste rolling tubes because, as many people here said, the Syrah is very revealing of those changes.
I hope it helps you.

Ecclectique, thank you for your permanent advise.
I´ll contact you about your kitchen system.

Hi MRMB

The CAT I owned, still own but it is on extended loan, is an older unit. How the newer units compare with the Supratek Syrah is open to question especially since you have the JL-1 amps. As Ecclectique notes, the Syrah is more transparent and seems more extended along with a sense of undefinable rightness, this is closer to how music sounds. I have also listened extensively to a friends ARC SP-10 Mk 2 in my system and while I feel the Syrah has a much better line stage I have come to the conclusion that the phono stage in both the CAT and ARC is mighty good compared to the Syrah. It should be noted that both the CAT and ARC are well noted for their phono stages and with very good reason. I still have work to do on my analog front end, different ic maybe a Koetsu but it is not where I want it to be. So the final chapter hasn't been written yet. You don't mention a tt so this may not have any importance to you.

I have a Berning zh270 and Bel Canto DAC 1.1 with a JVC 1050 zn as a transport which I have run direct without pre. It is very clean and transparent, not at all harsh but seems to take on a more clinical presentation than with no pre.

With your wonderful system I feel you would benefit by a Supratek but a CAT should also work quite well and I doubt that anyone here can give you a definitive answer. A Supratek would definitely be a great choice if you just need a line stage, you can't go wrong, especially at the price point. If you need a phono stage as well, there are more options and in my opinion the Supratek has serious competition based on my experiences to date. Hope this helps a bit.

Mrmb. Wow! A very fine system indeed sir,and being a former owner of soundlab A-1's..very close to my heart.While my system is voiced primarily for vinyl,I am certain you would be amazed at the benefit of a top level pre in your rig,whether it is a supratek, one of the Cats or any other pre at that level. I have never auditioned the wadia in my own rig,however....the supratek syrah's line stage was considerably better than my cat sig sl-1 mk2,my MFA luminescence or my ARC sp-10 mk2 when paired with my sony es9000. And I can say for certain that all of the pre's were much more preferable than a direct hook-up to the amps.My experience with a digital source without a preamp in the line was that the music was somewhat thinner dimensionally than real life, missing the body and the bloom of the real thing. The syrah is incredibly transparent and dynamic,and adds nothing of a character or signature per sey. I have never heard the cat amps paired with the cat preamp either so I cannot attest to their synergy and can only surmise they would be a very good match. I did have the pleasure of hearing the magnificent JL-1's mated to the Klimo Merlin pre,[another great pre BTW] powering a pair of proacs former flagship model response 4's and can honestly say I was completely mesmerized with the fidelity, and one of the finest sounding rigs this guy has ever heard. The remote option is also one that I had reservations about as well, but now.... something I couldn't live without. It functions strictly as a motorized pot for gain only and isn't in the signal path. My acquisition of any of the pre's mentioned above, were solely on the merrit's of their phono stages and I can honestly say I enjoyed countless hours with all of them while spinning vinyl. I still use the Luminescence and doubt I will ever part with it. That said:The supratek bests every one of them when used as a line stage and by a wide margin. At the current price of admission...it has no real competition that I am aware of! Perhaps, someone here with much more experience than I have in the digital medium will hopefully chime in here.

Several Supratek owners, myself included, have gone from CATs to Suprateks. I had a Ref MK2. No comparison. The Syrah made the CAT sound clinical and flat. And the ability to change cart loading on the fly is a real nice feature.

Mrmb
Mick told me in a e-mail that there would be no sonic degradation with the optional remote, but I have never heard one, so I am taking him at his word.

Tim

Whew, after the better part of last evening and this evening, I just finished reading this very profuse thread. Having enjoyed its eclectic and congenial repartee, I do appreciate all the contributions, but I have a few questions.

I would consider my rig to be one of high resolution and eminently listen able, but it is sans a pre-amp.

What might I expect a pre-amp, and especially a Supratek to do for me? That is, I am running a Wadia 861 direct into CAT JL1 amps. How can additional circuitry, interconnects, etc. help the sonics of my system? BTW, the CAT’s are driving Soundlab M1’s.

Has anyone heard a pre with and without the remote option? Does having it affect/detract from the sonics?

Would using the HT pass-through with my Wadia be equivalent to running direct to the Amps as I am now doing? Other than additional cabling (and the sonic signature of same) --in comparison to my currently direct method -- would I observe any changes in resolution, imaging, soundstage, frequency response etc. by using the direct pass-through? BTW, I picked up on this concept from a previous submittal, but would appreciate confirmation of the pristine pass-through concept, if perchance the Wadia and line stage were not to my liking.

One final question, given that synergy is a very important element of our hobby, would running a CAT Signature or Ultimate pre-amp (vs a Supratek) with my CAT monoblocks be the logical choice (and why am I thinking of a Supratek)? On paper, CAT-to-CAT would be appear to be most synergistic combination, but obviously, paper has nothing to do with the etherealness we are seeking. I did notice some mention of comparisons between the Supratek pre’s vs CAT’s, but read no discussion of the differences. Someone with the experience of hearing both these pre’s, and the desire to discuss same, would be appreciated. Of course, if you feel a discussion of these differences/similarities would impede the flow of this discussion, by all means, please contact me via my e-mail.

Todd
Tim here, I talked with Mick, and the Chenin is the upgraded phono version of the Syrah. The Syrah is no longer produced. It is the same price $2500.00 until April 1st then the price will be $2900.00. I know this because I just ordered one. I hope this helps.

Regards Tim

Todd,

Contact Mick. In that case you will get a definite answer.

cheers....

Anyone know if the phono in the Syrah will be upgradable to the new revision in the chenin?

thanks,

Todd

Saint- the issue is that the phono stage is very high gain and the whole pre uses unshielded wires. The unit can pick up hum from its own power supply, or from other transformers in your rig. You may have to experiment, but in general, try to keep the phono input cables AND the control portion of the pre as far away as is reasonably possible from the power supply. Keep the main remote removed from other transformers as well, and make sure the line ins only cross a power cord at right angles. Make sure you tone arm leads are grounded to the pre. Of course, there's also the possibility of ground loop hum, but that's another issue.

That is good news to here I would like to find a good universal remote as well. I am ordering the Chenin today with remote function.

Jazzdude

Talked to Mick a couple of weeks ago and yes, you can use a learning universal remote. I think I'll do that. The TV plastic remote is looks ugly and cheap. Anyone aware of a learning universal remote with a minimalist (just a few buttons) and cool design?

Swampwalker, how far apart should the 2 pieces be so I don't pick up that hum? Inches, feet, different levels on the componenet rack etc.

Tim- you will not regret it. If the phono stage has been improved, then a real bargin becomes an unbelieveable bargin. Just be sure that you are careful with locating the units avoid picking up hum (due to unshielded wiring, not due to tubes).

Forgot to say on the last post that the remote is an extra $150.00, so total with shipping is $2790.00.

Regards Tim

Well Charliee I think I will do just that. Mick sent me an e-mail today, and said the Chenin with HT pass through, and remote will go up in price the first of April. Until April it is the standard $2500.00. After April 1st it will be $2900.00, just thought people would like to know. This will be my first preamp ever, and a tube preamp at that. I have never had a tube anything, so I don't know what I am getting myself into, but it should be a lot of fun finding out, LOL.

Tim

Saint2

I owned a VTL 5.5 in the past, and what I recall from the
manuel is that you have to adjust the volume seperately
with the 5.5 and your home theatre pre amp.The "Unity Gain"
wasn't a set and forget operation with that pre amp.

Also, even tho it is a fine "beginners" pre amp, it is
clearly inferrior to the Supratek pre amps in performance,
value, and looks. Honestly, there is no comparison. If you
have the funds, and you can stand the wait, skip the VTL and step up to the Supratek.

both of my preamps shipped with the plastic remote. wonder if anyone has tried to integrate the supratek preamps into one of those high-dollar universal remote jobs.

I am very interested in the Syrah or as it is called now the Chenin. I will e-mail Mick again today, and see if I get a response. A preamp that I buy will be the first preamp I have ever bought, tube or SS. I have been told that VTL matches great with Heron speakers, and I have been looking at the 5.5 which has a HT bypass on the front panel. I like that easy accessibility of the HT switch, and it sounds like the Syrah has that accessibility as well. One more question, is the remote still plastic or Aluminum or something different?

" I placed 2 e-mails to Mick weeks ago with no response"

That's odd? I have correspondence with him last Sunday. Everytime I sent an e-mail to him, I got a response right away.

BTW, I believe the Syrah preamp does not exist anymore. It is now called a Chenin. Same linestage superiority as the Syrah but with better phono section ( taken from the Cortese) as what Flacre mentioned a few post above.