Nathan
Since you are starting from scratch, the pre-amp would probably be the first place to start. As TWL notes and I would agree, if you are considering the Berning make sure you match it with a friendly load, 8 ohms. The Merlin/Berning synergy is magic if you have the rest of your system properly matched. |
Nathan, it is kind of a moot point as to whether to get the preamp or the amp first, if you don't have the other also. If you wanted to use digital source, the Berning has the volume control for direct input. That could get you by, while you are waiting for your Syrah to be completed, which takes a few months. But for your phono system, you'll have to have the preamp. The Berning would be a real nice match with the Syrah, due to it's transparency and speed. You wouldn't want to let the nice signal that comes out of the Syrah to get "bogged down" in a lesser quality amp. If you do get the Berning, get speakers that stay around 8 ohms, and don't dip too low. I know from experience that the Berning starts to "harden up" at the lower impedances, and loses that liquid midrange. It is not noticeable as long as you are above 6 ohms. |
Damn it!
I had the Rogue 99 Magnum, Switched to a Belles 20A with a Herron Moving Coil Phono Stage.
I prefer the Herron/Belles combo over the 99 mag with mag phono board.
I had a LLANO amp paired with my Rogue 99 and then.....
Damn it!
I list the Merlins for sale and a kind gentlemen brings his Berning ZH-270 over to audition my speakers with. I sell everything only to find out that the Berning lowest price is around 3800 after expecting at the timeto pay 2700-3K I sold my other gear.
So now my sytem is all up for sale and I was wondering if any of you would be willing to speculate on what I should get first the Berning or my next pre-amp.
I will say that I listen to my Spacedeck/Arm combo with a Dynavector Karat 17DII mostly. I started out with a Theta Casa Nova and now I've reverted completely back to vinyl. Funny how the process sometimes seems to work backwards.
Anyway, I hope I can sell my current gear to complete my next upgrade.
BTW, thanks for the informative thread. I must have missed this one over at AA.
Best,
Nathan |
Twl, thanks for the info on the Hal-O-Tube dampers. I found the dealer that is selling them on Audiogon. I ordered a pair, and should have them sometime next week. I will keep you guys informed. |
Mick advised that construction of my Syrah will begin next week. My order dates to mid-June. Perhaps a Thanksgiving day treat!
Thanks to all postings with advice on tube recommendation.This will be the next challenge. I have been working on dedicated power while waiting for the pre.
The Supratek will be be in front of Air Tight ATM3 mono amps. Listening to other tube preamps suggests the Syrah will be a great addition, especially with the phono ( LP12 ). |
Slowhand, I have seen the Hal-o tube dampers right here on the Audiogon Classified. I think that one of the main dealers puts an ad up regularly. They also have feet and other isolation materials of the same stuff.
I think that if you play reasonably loud, the dampers are a good idea for the Syrah. The Syrah has the tubes standing up right in the open. This allows alot of airborne vibration to get to them. Vibrating tubes in a preamp is not a good thing, because any vibrational effects that happen in them is going to be re-amplified many times as the signal proceeds down the amplifiction route. The situation would be the worst in the phono section tubes, where the amplification factor may be on the order of 100,000 times before it gets to the speaker. The Hal-O tube dampers seem to be a good design, and don't melt, from what I've heard. It is also important to get non-microphonic tubes for a preamp application, for the same reasons stated above. You see, the plates in the tubes also vibrate internally, causing anomalies. When you buy your tubes, make sure that they have been checked for microphonics, and accurately represented by the seller. Andy, at Vintage Tube Services, is very good for this.
The tube dampers sometimes make the sound less "airy" because in some cases, the "airy" sound is produced by some small level microphonic effects in the tubes.
Some people also put tube dampers on the tube bakelite bases to reduce vibration there, and sometimes even use a damping treatment to the tube sockets.
If you like some of the "airy" microphonic effect, you don't have to do all of the tubes, or use only one damper per tube, depending on your particular needs. |
Hey Fiddler, where did you get the Hal-O-Rings and how much did they cost? Does one ring per tube do the job? I have seen them somewhere, but I can't remember where. |
Hey, That's excellent, Twl! I would enjoy it immensely. When your car is out of the shop, please do contact me. I'm actually about 30 miles west of Asheville--but still fairly close (perhaps even closer for you?). I just can't imagine a guy with your experience and knowledge wouldn't appreciate the Syrah. Best Regards.
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Walter, thank you. I don't live too far from the Asheville NC area, so that may be a possibility. I would enjoy that. I doubt your turntable needs any tweaking, but I am flattered that you would consider me for that task. I really would like to hear that Syrah with your analog front end. Perhaps one day soon, when my car is out of the repair shop, I could contact you. |
Hey Twl, If you're ever in the Asheville, NC, area, you're more than welcome to come over to my house and listen. Heck, if you're willing, I'll even let you do some tweaks to my turntable :-).
You're right. On top of landing an unbelievable pre, I've really enjoyed the good will and helpfulness on display in this thread. Great stuff.
Thanks for the tip on the dampers, Fiddler.
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I really like this thread, because everyone here seems to be really enjoying themselves, and their systems. I would love to see more of this on other threads around the forum. You guys are doing what it is all about, and I feel alot more comfortable over here than on the other pages. Hope you don't mind me sharing a little of the joy that you all are experiencing. I'd really love to hear one of these Syrah preamps, but listening to you owners is the next best thing. Maybe it will be for me, in 2003. |
twl, you have me drooling too!! Yea, the Berning is a keeper. A custom Supratek in front of it makes my knees go weak. Not much experience here with the 45 tube; so scarce and expensive try to keep myself from going places where my wallet might begin to scream these days. I'm with the WE300B and like it, but the choked amp, custom tweeked has me berry, berry envious!!
Thank you for sharing your enthusiasm. |
For those of you experiencing noisey tubes, you might want to try Hal-O tube dampers. I read about them in the Tube Asylum and ordered them for all of my Chardonnay tubes (they are cheap), as well as my DAC tubes.
They made a tremendous difference. The clarity took a big leap forward, the weight of the music increased (the strings especially have more body), imaging is more specific (massed strings) and the background is much, much blacker.
The best money I have spent in a long time. This is a very audible tweak. It seems that my system lost a little air, but after listening, things sound more real with much more detail. I much prefer this sound by far. I think the air was simply high-freq hash disquised as air.
Not affiliated in anyway with these Hal-O things, just a "shocked" and very happy owner. |
As you guys probably already know, I am currently going broke trying to pay for my custom prototype Berning amp. The preamp is next on the list, once I recover financially.
But listen to this, you guys. This amp(under construction now) is a hand point-to-point wired, no circuit board, 12vdc battery-powered, Single-Ended Triode, Zero-Hysteresis OTL(ZOTL), hand-wound choke-loaded, Type 45 tube amp with Emission Labs Mesh-Plate 45's, and Sylvania NOS 6SN7's, built by David Berning himself, with all his latest experimental tweaks, and layout dictated by shortest signal path without regard to convenience or style. It is one of a kind in the world.
You wanna talk about transparency? When was the last time you heard of a Single-ended Triode OTL? With Mesh-Plate 45's? The guy at Emission Labs where I got the $425 tubes, said that it sounded to him like the "Holy Grail" of amplifiers. Just imagine a Syrah in front of that!
What I would really like to do is to talk to Mick, and get him to build me up a custom battery-powered Phono preamp with ladder-stepped volume controls, dual mono, with no line stage considerations other than the minimum necessary to acheive the preamplification of the phono signal. I don't use anything else but phono in my system. No CD, no tuner, no tape, just phono. With a straight thru design, as much as possible. That would really be cool!
That way, I could go from the cartridge to the speakers with no transformers at all in the signal path, or in the power supplies. And no AC line grunge to contend with. Just pure clean battery DC power all the way through.
Yes, Asa, the Magus is tweaked well. All re-capped and re-wired, and re-jacked. It does real well, but I know that there is room for improvement. With this new amp, and a really well-designed phono pre, this system will be as clear as a plate glass window(with the window open!). It is not too far from that now. I can hear those Mesh-Plate 45's directly driving my Lowthers now, in my imagination. Straight from the tubes to the drivers, with no output transformers, and no crossovers, just straight wire from tube to driver, in Pure no-feedback Class A. Awesome!
Excuse me while I drool, but this is TOO much fun! I am anticipating this amp, just like you guys are anticipating the arrival of your Supratek units. This has got to be at least half the fun of getting it!
I am just loving this audio thing with all my heart and soul. I can't imagine having any more fun than this. I really hope that all of you are having as much fun as I am, with your own systems. |
Twl - I am in full agreement about analog. I always thought if I threw enough money at it, I could make digital sound "right" and truth is (as I've discovered), my expectations were not realistic - in the least. Analog is right - out of the box.
Asa, you might be right about the Syrah phono stage being heads and shoulders above most and not far from even the very best. However, when I first began my analog lust - I compared the Syrah phono to a Michelle Dichrono feeding the Syrah's line stage and the sound was magical both ways. It was tough call which was better - both configurations had merrit (added liquidity going direct to Syrah Phono and blacker background with the Dichrono into Syrah line stage). Truthfully, I would be happy with either setup but I'm thinking the Supratek Grange will suit me best!! |
ditto on twl on quiet vestigial enlivened silence vs. SS blackness or voidness. Listen to pre with music and the space will be what it supposed to be.
twl, I can't stand it anymore! You have a great system, really know your analog, and the Magus is a fine pre (I assume you've got it tweeked), BUT, YOU HAVE TO GET A SYRAH!! At your point of appreciation its simply a CRIME that you can't get into one. I don't care if you have to find pennies in behind the sofa cushions and starve, GET ONE as soon as you can!!
There, I feel better....
Bwhite, very happy for you. A guy with a great system told me a couple of months ago that his Aesthetix external PS, NOS tubed, two box IO w/ vol. pots direct into amps inched out the Syrah in a couple areas, and I believe him (perhaps in his system), but for the $ in one chassis, there is NOTHING that touches the Syrah. Everyone should tell the gurus to stuff it for their next purchase and get one (then do the same with a Teres TT, also a great value).
Incidentally, my Syrah didn't like the Bybee Sig conditioner I had around; likes to be plugged directly into the wall if you can believe that (!).
Would be interested to hear what PC's you guys have tried on it. Thanks in advance. |
I also had my Syrah plugged into a PS300. It improved detail but I thought it restricted the overall sound, like something was holding the music back. I got an Audio Magic Stealth and am very happy with it. Sound is more extended both up and down and wonderfully musical. YMMV. |
Jwu5918, my friend has a Cortese and he is uning PS300 for his digital front end. the Cortese is plugges straight into the wall.
I used to use a PS600 and found that even though it was providing its wom "new" current, that plugging directly into the wall sounded better (more dynamic). |
HaHa! Oh, I'm having a good laugh, Bwhite! I have taken so much flack over the last few months from members, about promoting vinyl over digital. It's so good to hear someone else saying it for a change.
Regarding other's comments about "quiet" tubes, they will not be as quiet as SS preamps. Especially in the phono section. But, quiet is not what we're after, is it? You can get "quiet" by turning the unit off. A reasonably low noise floor is all that is needed if the music is coming out.
I use 1950's Sylvania 6SN7's in my Berning, and they are very musical sounding to me.
Quiet, is something deadly that has been done to us by the digital/SS world. Quiet background, at the expense of musical content. I'm happy to take the little tube noise, and the vinyl ticks, to get a truer musical experience, any day. YMMV, as they say.
IMHO.
Enjoy your preamps, guys. It sounds like a wonderful value to me, and I'm glad to hear so much reporting on it. I feel like I almost know what it is like to own one. One day, maybe I will. |
Asa - phono is astonishing and I don't even have the Syrah phono stage (yet). Simply using a Black Cube into my Chardonnay, I've acheived sonics that surpass all previous attempts at making digital sound "good". I haven't listened to a CD for about 6 weeks now and don't plan to. High end digital is a bit of a joke.
Mick plans to give me 100% trade in value for my Chardonnay when upgrading to the Syrah. That's fair :) 3 or 4 month wait though... Argh! So, I'm considering using a Walker Reference phono into the Chardonnay to see what that does - best of both worlds perhaps? Who knows... The Black Cube/Chardonnay is great as is and certainly kills other one box pre/phono units available, I'm sure the Syrah is better but I have a feeling that as long as the Supratek is in there somewhere, the magic will be there too. |
Anyone used PS 300 or 600 with Multiwave in thier system. I like to hear your opinion. Thanks |
Mike,
Sounds like a very delicious cycle. Sure am glad I like white wines. Anyway, I imagine it will just get better with time. |
Jimyork, The more he builds the of us are telling the world what a great pre it is and the more he gets behind in his production, guess the bod has to come with the good. Try the Symposium Roller Block Jrs. they work wonderful under my Cortese. |
I ordered a Chardonnay from Mick on Sep 3. He indicated that the wait time would be about 3 months. I hate to keep bothering him because it just will slow him down. Anybody else know what the current wait time is at this point. Also, has anyone tried using Aurios MIBs under the preamp?? |
Where do you get these special tubes you guys are refering to? As I'm writing this, I'm listening to vinyl and it is astonishing! Even though between cuts I can hear these damn tubes crackling away. But when Louis Armstrong blows into that horn, oh my God! |
One other suggestion I'd add to reducing noise levels/hum with the Syrah is to keep the preamp as far away from amps as possible. That's been my experience - I rearranged my room so that my amps were on either side of my Syrah and things suddenly got very noisy. When I rearranged again and moved amps far away, the hum went. It was particularly noticeable on the phono stage. Also, for whatever reason, I find having the tonearm on my TT close to my amp causes similar hum issues. All this could be just with my system synergy (or lack thereof ;-) but just thought I'd mention. |
Walter, you are dead on. The stock tubes are matched and balanced to each other very nice, but its hard to look back once you put some KenRad black 6SN7's in there. I've got 4 matched pairs, all primo NOS's in original boxes and they vary on noise. With that said, all spit in my face for the first 100 hrs and still can get cranky now and then. Basically the Supra is so discerning that you are hearing the tube's operation and with such high caliber stuff verything must be dead on. Its not that the pre is unstable, its just very very good and will tell you about a tube's given quality. Its a pain if you want to mucho magic, but as walter says, i think its worth it because once you get them right, they are stable. I've tried the Brimars (no noise, but too precise for me), Sylvania VT231 (alot like the black Kens, not as enveloping or expansive, but relatively quiet) and the ones I'm using now, Tungsol round plate black glass, which on this smaller system I prefer (sweeter, better micro-details on chestiness, guitar body, etc., not as expensive in depth field as Kens) and with very low noise.
I bought some tubes from a good dealer (Sylvania green letters) and they were so noisy I traded them back in for some RCA 12BH7 inputs on my amps. It was in the beginning and I thought, oh my God, I'll never get the noise down in this pre - but it wasn't the pre, it was the tubes.
You are getting a custom handmade $10-15K pre for $2500-5K and at that level things become exacting - its part of owning a Lamhorghini. Be patient, but know that it will never be a Spectral. Its not perfect, and should be kept standard, but if you get it right its very stable and will last you twenty years or more. |
I hear you, Ads. I have experienced quite a few quirky noises from the Syrah with some of the tubes I've tried, including Tung Sol 5881s, Ken Rad black glass VT-231s, and now Sylvania Metal Base 6SN7Ws. At first, I simply considered going back to the stock tubes, which were pretty damn good, even if not quite as "magical" as the others. But then the noise lessened some--maybe the tubes "settled in" or something. I really have no explanation, as I am still relatively new in this hobby. There is still some tube chatter occasionally, but I consider the glorious sound the Supratek puts out worth these quirks. I don't know if it is possible to get the Syrah dead quiet with some of the better NOS tubes. Asa, Bwhite, and other veterans can speak better to this. Good luck, and hang in there.
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Well, it's been 3 weeks with my Cortese and I am torn between the most wonderful music in my listening room that I can remember (over 30+ yrs) and noisy tube problems. I've got one of Mick's latest Cortese preamps. It was delivered with the adjustable output gain on the back for matching various amp inputs, XLR/RCA's (I use RCA's only), remote control volume (which works perfectly and is a blessing for this old body!), and what Mick states is his latest choice in a tube configuration for the line stage amplification section (1-6SN7 and 1-12B4A per channel). I've now gone through 3 sets of the 12B4A's and finally got a set that won't sit there and "spit" at me. Now one the 6SN7's is doing a "whistling" act. I came from all solid state (Spectral) system and I'm accustomed to quiet. But then again, I've never had music reproduction like this pre gives to me, not to mention that it has reintroduced me to VINYL which in itself is most rewarding. I've ordered a complete new tube set-up in hopes for a reprive from the noise. HELP |
Just get the standard.....it is what it is, not a Levinson. That's the lesson. Bwhite, how is the phono going? Etthan's too? Haven't heard either of you say, so thought it might have been disappointing over long haul, although hope not. |
T-bone,
It is a smooth turning volume control. They are all parafeed now. |
T bone - the remote operates smoothly. Mick uses an Alps pot for the remote controlled preamps.
I fully recommend against having your preamp customized - beyond the remote.
Most every "option" I asked for had a problem. My first Chardonnay preamp was a a dog - Mick realized this and replaced it.
Options I asked for:
A single chassis version. - Mick tried and then 1/2 way through couldn't do it.
XLR outputs - Mick used the wrong connectors and a makeshift (engineered on the fly) transformer output that did nothing but make LOUD hum.
Theater by-pass. After explaing to Mick how this should work, he came up with his own solution and the results were less than optimal. To date, I don't know if the feature works or doesn't.
Remote. Mine increases in volume when you press the down button and lowers with the up button. Silly and quirky but annoying none-the-less.
Subwoofer output - works great but its a standard feature if you consider the fact that Supratek's come with two sets of outputs - one can be used for a sub.
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As I said before after one channel went out and I had John Tucker repair it, he greatly modified my Syrah. One of the things we did was to replace the inexpensive pot with a stepped attenuator. Since he also made the unit parafeed, put a constant current source on the output tube, and switched to 6N1P from the 6SN7, however, I can tell you little about the benefits of each mod. |
Outlier, thank you much for the info regarding the remote.
To those who have the Syrah or Cortese, is the volume control a smoothly turning knob or a stepped knob? Has anyone asked Mick for something specific in regard to output control?
I'd also be interested in hearing from those who got their Supratek 'customized' and with what features?
Thanks in advance,
Travis |
Strange, I always listen to analogue first then switch to cd; the other way around & the cd sound annoys me (no offence to redbook digital -- just habit)! |
Happy, outlier, that hum solved. Its a real pain if not found and didn't want you to get deterred from analog. Hope you like it. Try listening to analog for about an hour then switching back to CD. Somehow, the mind gets it easier that way. |
Asa, thanks for the advice. I managed to isolate the hum issue. It was related to the close proximity of my Syrah to my power amps, believe it or not. I had to rearramge my room again, and bring my power amps right next to my speakers, leaving the Syrah in the middle as far away from both amps as possible. Hum is now completely gone. I'm a happy camper now. Mick's preamp certainly wasn't at fault. As my turntable burns in further, I'm now beginning to see how good a vinyl rig can be. Fingers crossed it will overtake my CD player soon. Happy listening! |
Outlier, shpouldn't be burn in or PC's on amps, etc. - that's too noticeable for that. Etthan contacted me and said he was having hum problems too, so you may want to talk with him about what he's doing. Its usually grounding issues or phono cord issues, ie not shielded enough. You may want to look into things there (good phono stages are invariably quite sensitive, some more than others).
Hum is a perennial hobgobblin in phono stages and every analog enthusiasist sighs relief when he/she doesn't have any - and sometimes you just don't know where its coming from! You just have to slog away, talk to other people like you're doing, and keep at it. However, if it is the phono stage itself then the manufacturer needs to address that. Finding another analog system to plug it in that is already stable is always a good idea, although not dispositive.
Keep us updated please. |
I've had my Syrah up and running for about two weeks now and it's glorious. However, one problem I've found is that I'm getting quite a bit of hum from the phono stage setting. I'm a newbie to vinyl, so am not sure whether the phono stage is buring in, or whether there are some ground issues. Even after disconnecting my turntable from the Syrah (interconnects and ground cable), the hum is still fully there. It could be that the Syrah is close to the floor - it's on a wooden slab on the floor, with three brass cones seperating the Syrah from the wood. Also, I just got new FIM Gold power cords on my power amps, so maybe they're just burning in, and having an impact on noise at this point. I just rearranged my components, so it's hard to attribute sounds & hum to any particular change I made. The hum was there when I first got the preamp (in phono section only), but seemed to dissipate over time. Now it seems to be back in full force though. HOpefully, the hum will go away following further break-in, but I wanted to check whether others have experienced the same issue. I'm keen to get the vinyl rig going with minimum hum and background noise. Thanks! |
Slowhand, I notice that the input impedance of the AR 100.2 is significantly higher than that on my bryston (150kohm unbalanced and even higher balanced). The Bryston's input impedance is 50kohm unbalanced and 20kohm balance. Will the lower input impedance adversely affect the matching of the Bryston with the Supratek? Thanks. Tom |
Hi Boschtb,
They match great with SS amps. Many of us who own Suprateks are using them with SS amps. I am using the Audio Research 100.2 SS amp, and it is a match made in heaven! |
I am very interested in the Suprateks, but haven't seen much as to how they match with SS amplifiers. Anyone using one of these preamps with an SS amp? |
It would be interesting to see what device this is. If it is a knob (analogue knob), it should be a potentiometer of sorts. If it were say a stepped knob, it could be a path of resistors. Anyway, you might want to ask Mick and see what he has to say.
KF |
Tok20000
I really don't know if what Mick used was a potentiometer or not, but if I'm not mistaken all of the Supratek preamps has an output level adjustment in one form or another.It's just that on mine Mick incorporated it on both RCA and XLR outputs.
If your asking why would I want something added inline that could potentially degrade the sound, of course not. As far as I know my preamp sounds great as it totally beat out my Sonic Frontiers Line 2 SE and all my other preamps I had before it. |
Rmml, why would you want an additional potentiometer (output level adjustment knob) in the signal path?
I like the way my Ayre K-3x works for output level adjustment. If you need more or less output/gain, Ayre will mail you the specific resistor that you install in your preamp. I told them I needed 6db less gain and they emailed me the resistor.
KF |
Jpms -- having experienced the Krons not the Cortese, I can only extrapolate. First, check out the input impedance for the Krons & refer to the output impedance of the Cortese.
As I have heard them, the Kronz provide brute power &, I expect, *should* be happy with the sonics of a Cortese, as these are reported from respectable ears. However, make sure the Cortese has an adequate and quiet power line (a dedicated line?) as the KR seem to happily amplify ANYTHING you feed them -- i.e. they are hardly the politest/most forgiving/etc, amps out there! Cheers! |
Can someone tell me how would be a combination of Supratek Cortese and KR Enterprise Kronzilla single ended Mono Blocks?
Thanks. |
Rmml... That is great to know. Looks like Mick has managed to fix some of the earlier issues concerning variations on the original design. That is outstanding! Mick is making improvements to his design and processes - this is a good thing for all of us. |
My Supratek Chardonay is fitted with a balanced output and it works just fine, it even came with an output level adjustment knob so I was able to fine tune it with the input of my amp. The output level works on both single ended and balanced output. |
Hello. Questions I did to Mick ...
- When I asked Mick to put a headphone socket on the Cortese his answer was:
> " The output impedance of the Cortese is about 200 ohms- there are some good headphones able to be driven by this- check your headphones. It is possible to put a headphone socket on the back or top, but not enough room to put a seperate driver in the chassis"..."It doesn't hurt at all, one socket for the HD600 is possible".
- Does it have remote control?
> "Yes -remote volume only. Up/down, fine up/down, mute , works out to 30 feet"
- Does the new line stage version have XLR inputs and outputs?.In such a case is it really balanced?
> "Outputs only- yes it is truly balanced using transformer not op-amps or solid state".
- Couldn´t it have XLR inputs?. That way I could use the full potential of my Wadia.
> "Yes I can do that"
- Could I have also provision for bi amping with the balanced output?
> "Yes. I will have to make up a custom chassis but that is not a problem".
Of course, I trust him, but I agree whith Bwhite that simpler could be better in such a subtle preamplifier. If I can live without those changes, I think that at the end, it would be better. That way, there is more respect to the Mick´s original creation and less "caprice" from my self.
That means, the best possible sound. |
