Ready to try vinyl

Gee, I didn't see anything ungentlemanly in my reply R f sayles, I hope you can understand my "short form", and I had in fact addressed the gentleman's request, this is an ongoing thread with twists and turns, which is how discussions work, perhaps you could try to keep up and refrain from unwarranted personal attacks. I was answering two posts which were specifically on this thread, I don't remember telling anyone they don't know what they hear, I do however remember saying they rely too much on "experts," my point being that even the experts don't question universal assumptions. As to answering the gentleman's request for a reasonably priced turntable, perhaps you could explain to me where Galibier, SME, Amazon etc. fit in. You'd better show some fairness in your attacks and go after Judy426 and Mimberman as well. "Peace" LOL

Johnnantais, by the way you're beloved Art Dudley of Listener fame (also a personal favorite of mine) has several reference turntables. One is a Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Ittok LVII tonearm and Lingo power supply (as do I) and another is the Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Naim Aro tone arm and Naim Armageddon power suppy. In his associated equipment list I have failed to see a TT with training wheels errrr I mean an idler-wheel... another foul and his money have gone separate ways. Last I heard he was in hog heaven with those old shoe-boxes from Scotland. Just having fun with you!

Jeez, the short form then. Once upon a time, everyone in the world, including the world's "experts", believed the sun revolved around the earth. Did this mean the sun revolved around the earth? No. Now, everyone in the vinyl-spinning world believes belt-drive is the way to go, including the world's "experts". Does this mean belt drive is the superior system? By itself, majority agreement, including the "experts", means nothing, the only thing which does mean something are facts in an argument of this sort. And science, which is to say actual testing and comparisons, is the only way to it, or we'd still believe the sun revolves around the earth and be none the wiser (Galileo used his telescope, you can use a Lenco). This is the much the point of my "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" challenge, that and reasonable pricing and fun. For those who want to exercise a little thing called "independent thought" and who like hands-on experience, then I invite you to try the Lenco Challenge. Musical results can be had with a variety of technologies and company products, but argument/belief from authority is wrong wrong wrong and should be abandoned by those who don't want to be slaves, which is why I jumped into this thread, as I can't stand willing abdication of brains. Idler-wheel technology is receiving a fair bit of press these days, for a fee in Hi Fi Worlde (who also listen to and compare top-of-the-line direct drives from yesteryear to current high-end belt-drives with "surprising" results, as well as the big Garrards) and for free in 6moons: "They suffer from that common misconception that sociologist Robert Bierstedt (1913-1998) called temporocentrism. It's the belief that the present day represents the pinnacle of achievement for all things and one whereby people equate newer with better. Of course the marketing folks delight in taking full advantage of temporocentrism to sell the next great breakthrough. Sometimes newer is better but often it's just different."

Johnnantais, I don't know you and I don't see or here your point. What is your point in this tie raid ? Please, you could start by giving everyone here a break from your blah, blah ,blah (history?) lesson. Someone other than you on this flat earth may just have listened to, and tweaked with, a few decks before they started peeling off the hundrees. Where do you get off telling others that they don't know what they hear? Have a little respect and express you point (whatever it is)! Be a gentleman and if you have a comment that is value added, state your “preference”. Because, what it is all about here is helping out the person who started this thread. And by the way, what is the name of the TT that you have designed and manufactured? Just for our point of reference… Peace

Johnnantais
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Johnnantais
Thanks for the history lesson. You'll find sobriety that sobriety is not a bad thing.
:-)

Not to mention Avid, Basis, Brinkman, Pro-Ject, Well Tempered, SME, Musical Fidelity, Amazon, Microseiki, Acoustic Signature...etc.

Jeeze, I keep forgetting how these are all faulty and have horrible sound compared to the Technics SL1200. ;-)

(and for the record, psychoanimal, I have owned 2 1200s in my time, and while I think they're built like tanks and perform well, I don't think they sound as good as my lil ol' mmf-7 in the same setup)

In fact, Linn Sondek, VPI, Galibier, Teres, Amazon, Nottingham, Forsell, Rockport, Walker, Oracle, Sota, Origin, Verdier, Audiomeca, Thorens, Clearaudio, Rega, Kuzma, Michell, Roksan, and Wilson Benesch DO have it all wrong, a case of the usual orthodox dogma not being questioned and everyone blindly following without re-examination. Did ANY of these companies say "Gee, I think I'll try out a Garrard 301, and then a Technics SP10 MKII, to decide for myself which approach I should adopt"?, or did they say "Gee, even if they're better, the cost of manufacturing would be too high and the project too complex and intimidating"? or finally and most likely "Idler-wheel, direct-drive, say what?". The same happened with tubes long ago when solid state was deemed superior and tubes largely abandoned until, hey, someone actually decided to go back and listen and found it actually DOES sound good! Similarly, the world's "best" scholars for centuries believed the sun orbitted around the earth (thank you Ptolemy, you dunce), and those who claimed otherwise were threatened with incarceration, torture and death, which is why Galileo recanted despite the evidence of his telescope, while his peers the professors of Europe cheered the Church on. Centuries before Ptolemy, most cultures around at that time believed the earth orbitted around the sun (for instance the 7th-century BC Pythagoreans, who received their knowledge from the Egyptians before them), orthodox wisdom notwithstanding. So, to sum it up, the long list you provide is meaningless, simple argument by authority, one of the cardinal sins of scholarship (which should be ruled by logic and evidence), and only serves to prove the power of dogma and the willingness of the majority to not question. Though idler-wheels in fact had better rumble figures than the belt-drives of the time, we have been told for years belt-drives "won" because of rumble figures. Belt-drives are cheap to produce, same old story, allow larger profits, and yadda yadda yadda. Even the idler-wheel manufacturers saw the possibilities for increased profits from vastly lesser manufacturing costs (finely judged complex mechanics and massive motors vs rubber bands and tiny little VCR motors) and jumped on the belt-drive bandwagon, abandoning idler-wheel technology. Sometimes capitalism sucks, as today, with reality television dominating the airwaves, and damn that issue of "quality" and "integrity" anyway.

Of course, our fellow here can still get good sound, which is to say musical, from a carefully-chosen belt-drive, just not as good in many ways (or most, or all) as technologies which provide more stable speed (and thus better rhythm, and better bass, and...). And $2000 sounds like too much for me for a bottom line, but then I already prefer the sound of analogue to the sound of a computer chip. I think you could do very well for just a few hundred bucks, stretch it to $1000 including good tonearm, cartridge and phono stage. Since he does have a phono stage, then another underrated turntable - other than the Lenco ;-) - are the Aristons, specifically the RD11S (in the same league as an '80s-version Linn LP12), which is often for sale with excellent audiophile arm for only $300 or so. And the Technics SL1200 IS a current turntable, which with some tweaks will play excellent msic hassle-free for years. Of course, there's my favourite the Lenco (only if you absolutely MUST have $10,000+ of sound quality for only a few hundred bucks), for those with a hankerin' for DIY, and hankerin' to find out for themselves what all the hubbub about idler-wheel technology is about. Must end with the tried and true Rega turntables, elegant, simple, musical, plug'n'play.

all things being equal I would prefer direct drive, too. Problem is that true high end direct drive decks are no longer offered by anybody. The cost of designing and tooling for such a product is prohibitive given the level of sales. I do see that Brinkmann is introducing a direct drive high end turntable; will be interesting to see how it goes.

Belt drives are the most popular and marketed due to their simplicity. The motor is sourced from some company and then really all you have to worry about is the AC control and a bearing. A direct drive is a very complicated and sophisticated product.

Nick's response was more along the lines of "if you must have a mechanical record cleaner then the clearaudio works the best"....and then he proceeded to advise me the Last Record solution is the way to go.

Mimberman,
Psychicanimal might be on to something here. Perhaps Linn Sondek, VPI, Galibier, Teres, Amazon, Nottingham, Forsell, Rockport, Walker, Oracle, Sota, Origin, Verdier, Audiomeca, Thorens, Clearaudio, Rega, Kuzma, Michell, Roksan, and Wilson Benesch have it all wrong. Whoda thunk it?
:-)

Ahh, yeah, NEED CLEANING machine, #1 on the list, it will be huge improvement even on that 60 dollar Plastic sony table with P-mount on Ebay.. But anyway... A good cleaner, Highly suggest the VPI 16.5, will make any table sound like its high end in the comparison to not cleaning the albums, trust me I was not a believer and had a credit at a store with nothing else to buy so I got one and I WAS mad at myself, cause now its my favorite component. Also a GOOD 500-700 used table is pretty nice and a good 200.00 cartridge like Ortofon or Shure at a nice discount online for under 100.00 will definatly be keepers... but then I say skip everything in between, cause then you need to drop 2500.00 plus to really kick it up a notch. from what I have heard anyway...

While pshcyicanimal is right in saying tha tyou don't have to spend around 2,000 to have a nice turntable, I disagree with his following comment:

"You must not go the belt drive route or you'll waste a LOT of money and end up with frustration"

Don't you love it when people make HUGE declarations and then don't elaborate. First off, what is this amazing 900 direct drive table you have, and what have you compared it to in the multithoushand dollar category. Secondly, what, juding by _your experience_ is such a waste about using a belt drive system. What exactly is the frustration?

Hopefully others will weigh in, but I think you'd be hard pressed to prove Psychicanimal's reckless assertion that belt drive is the lesser drive technology. This guy must be a DJ, my suggestion would be ignore him unless he substantiates some of his, in my opinion, false claims

What I have learned so far.....price of a quality mid level TT.....about 2000.00

That's a myth, not truth dude! I have a killer high end deck that's in the multithousand dollar category for about $900, not including cartridge.

You must not go the belt drive route or you'll waste a LOT of money and end up with frustration. Idler drive or direct drive will take you there--and cheaper. There's a thread on idler drives w/ over 2,000 posts and a freak that modifies Technics SL-1200 decks.

http://www.kabusa.com

***

I will also recommend the MMF-7. I bought one a year ago, brand new w/Channel Island phono pre, for around $1200. I found vinyl to me MUCH quieter than my recollection. I will probably be upgrading in the next year or so, but I know I can recoup much of my initial expense.

A used MMF-7 is a good recommendation to start. However, if you like what you hear, it has severe limitations and you will upgrade quickly so wait for a good price.
As mentioned by many, a record cleaning machine is essential. Don't waste money on an expensive automatic machine; you can buy a nice manual unit and spend the saved money on some nice vinyl. Your vinyl will never know the difference.

Well, since you're just getting into this I agree that you probably want to buy a rig with a working cartridge that's already set up, that way you don't have to do all the mounting and aligning yourself. The cartridge and the stylus are seperate and you can have a cartridge retipped (given a new stylus) but it's rather pricey. If you can find a used unit where the cartridge and stylus have low hours and are said to be in good condition, then just check the sellers feedback. Most (but this doesn't always hold) sellers here are just like you and aren't looking to sell you a piece of junk. If you get a really good deal on a used table but the cartridge isn't included or isn't up to snuff, then I'd still buy it because you could always find someone to mount a new cartridge (or really, do it yourself, it's not that hard) and then you have the added fun of getting to shop for a cartridge. (maybe I am a glutton for pain).

What you'll find if you do like vinyl is that you may decide to switch your cartridge way before it dies out, because the cartridge alone dictates much of the sound, and there are so many different types, ranging from 50 bucks up to 100,000. The stock MMF-7 comes with a Goldring Eroica (a very competent cartridge). If you started with the MMF-7 (read the reviews in the absolute sound and elsewhere, because it does compare with all the $2,000 rigs and some higher than that) then you would have to spend much more to hear significant difference in sound. Same thing with the VPI Scout, but the scout you can send back to VPI for upgrades as you desire.

Thank you one and all. You have all been extremely helpful.
What I have learned so far.....price of a quality mid level TT.....about 2000.00.....advise on Audiogon......priceless!
I am looking at the recommended TT's and trying to decide new or used. Which brings me to one last concern....are the stylus and the cartridge one and the same? Can you replace one without replacing the other? How often do these items get replaced due to wear?( let's say listening on average 10 hours per week) I would not want to buy a used TT and then have to buy new stuff just to make it sound like it is supposed to. Seems to make a good case for buying new. Waddya think?

Music Hall MMF-7. Get a used one. Enjoy....................

Wow, Nick Gowan at Truesound eh? Basically dismisses the usefulness of RCMs (almost specifically VPI and Nitty Gritty) overall but then endorses an expensive Clearaudio? Any agenda there? Glad he doesn't steer his customers wrong.

If it were me, looking back I would get the VPI Scout (I didn't have the money at the time, so it wasn't a possiblity) because it's something which you can upgrade if you choose (scoutmaster...superscoutmaster, etc.), but is truly stellar in its stock form. Don't get me wrong, I love my MMF-7 and you wouldn't at all be sorry buying one, but if you _do_ have the cash to spend and _do_ decide you wan't to get into vinyl (which is a decision that shouldn't be taking lightly, otherwise you have a very expensive paper weight on your hands, not to mention a hundred or so expensive frisbees) then I think the Scout has great longevity than the MMF-7. And all this coming from an MMF-7 owner. Anyways, I'm sure people are sick of my terribly long-winded and tri-fold resonses.

cheers.

Understand that you must drop a bit of cash to get a turntable that will do the trick. The Rega 3 with a Dynavector was an excellent suggestion. Matching a TT and tone arm is a lot like matching amplifiers to speakers. A definite synergy is called for and deserves good research. There are so many ways to go and most of it all comes down to how much cash you are able spend on this venture.
If you buy something of quality used chances are you will not loose too much in the case that you fall in love with analog but want to move upscale. Considering the relative quality of what your other equipment is you might look at lending a TT from a dealer in the range that you ultimately would be willing to invest. The benefit here is that you get some support and at “no obligation” get to try some things and in the end you don’t undersell yourself on the analog and then walk away dissatisfied.
Understand where I’m coming from. I have had a Linn Sondek Lp12 with a Linn Ittok LVII tone arm since 1983 and have had nothing but excellent analog performance with little interest in changing decks. I have done a number of upgrades to the table over the years and imo it has kept it competitive. Are there better tables out now? Sure, I guess. Do I care? Not in the least.
Bottom line is I find vinyl superior in many ways and so do a lot of other A’goners. I would hate to see you miss out. As for the answer to your question… there are so many good or even great choices. It is going to take some looking and listening around on your part and a dollar figure in mind before you should jump imo. Best of luck. Enjoy!

I am enough of a rookie that I have picked up some tips just reading through this thread. But I would second the vote for the MMF-7. They do show up hear from time to time for $6-750. It is a great entry level table that you will be able to live with for a while to make up your mind about joining the cult. If you decide otherwise, you can resell it for probably the same price. If you do grow to like it, you may want to trade up to something that allows the tweaking and modding. Or you could be just as happy continuing to enjoy the MH.

Good luck.

I to recently returned to vinyl and after lots of questons bought a VPI SCOUT with a Dynavector 20 high output cart.
ALL THE ABOVE ADVICE ON CLEAN VINYL is very important and makes a big difference in overall sound quality. So keep a portion of your budget for a record cleaner and fluid.

For the TT, arm, cart, and accessories, I reckon around $2500 for a rig that doesn't have large drawbacks relative to cd playback.

You can get more than acceptable results without a record cleaning machine. Take a look at "Last Record Products"; I use their stuff now and no machine; just a supplied little plastic wipe thing with soft material on it works great.

I spoke to Nick Gowan of Truesound about record cleaning machines. His thought was that unless I was ready to pop for the very expensive, and large, Clearaudio unit I should go with the Last Record cleaning products. Save the money and buy some records.
http://www.lastfactory.com/Products/power_cleaner.html

Nick handles Audio Note (UK and Kondo) and has been doing this for over 20 years and I put his advice in the bank. He has never steered me wrong.

First I'd like to reiterate the suggestion of testing the waters with new or very clean LP's. Good condition, properly cleaned vinyl is very quiet. Listen to some LP's of music that you are very familiar with, of course.

As a first step, try to do some auditioning at a dealer. I'd recommend doing some listening on tables that would be within your individual budget. If that gets the juices flowing, take a "reasonable" plunge back into the analog waters. You can achieve some very good LP playback for $1200-2000. Have your dealer set the table up for you ( showing you how, of course). Put it on a level, isolated surface, and enjoy the music.

I re-entered the analog world about 4-5 years ago via a Rega P25 and Grado Ref. Platinum cartridge. When the Platinum is ready for replacement, I'll move up the line a step or two. The table, cartridge, and basic Nitty Gritty cleaner set me back $1,700. I've gotten my dollars' worth many times over.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/
http://audiophileusa.com/
http://www.dccblowout.com/index.asp
http://www.themusic.com/
http://gemm.com/
http://redtrumpet.com/
http://www.musicstack.com/
http://elusivedisc.com/

What is going overboard?

Regardless of the TT you decide upon, make sure you have a good vinyl cleaning system....I would recommend a vacuum record cleaner like the basic Nitty Gritty. Clean records make a huge difference....and you don't ruin your cartridge.

I started with a VPI Scout, Dynavector 10x5, and a Nitty Gritty machine. Have since upgraded to the Scoutmaster, and as money allows, will be working my way to Nirvana (not the band).

Good Luck.

woops, while I love amusicdirect, the other site should have been.

www.acousticsounds.com.com

happy hunting

Well, now you're really screwed. If you think the tables ar expensive, just wait till you start buying software. hopefully a lot of other people will pick up on this thread because while I know a thing or two, this site is awash with some truly knowledgable vinyl addicts who have all sorts of amazing tips (many of which you can find by looking through old discussion posts or reviews). If you're buying vinyl online (which is still second in my opinion to hunting it down in a store where you can listen to it...but not everyone has Academy Vinyl, god bless them) then there are a ton of sites (do a google search and see what happens. Two of the sites I use are:

Http://www.amusicdirect.com
http://www.acousticsounds.com

BTW, 180 gram obviously refers to the weight, and you get even heavier...tracks better, probably less succeptible to warping, etc. When you hold a 200 gram in your hands you realize how wimpy your old lps feel. Anywho, like I said I'm no expert, and this is all a starting point. If you're going to buy a turntable though you'll not want to be ruining your new cartridge by playing dirty, warped, staticky old records on it. My suggestion, buy a few titles you know well that you can pick up new or in very good condition, buy a table from a place that has a 30 day return policy, and see if you like the format first before comitting any serious money. Some people find it a hassle performing the vinyl ritual when they want to listen to music (and belive me, between all the wiping, dusting, cleaning, etc, it can be arduous) but this isn't for the instant gratification type anyways, since searching out the media can be a challenge alone.

Oops, my amps are Classe M 700....not 701.....I suppose everyone knew that but me!
Mimberman......Thanks for your advise. I did not know there were different kinds of vinyl (180 gram??). I do have about 100 old records that were given to me. I have never heard them. Probably not good to play on a new turntable. So, my next question....where do you buy vinyl records these days? I feel the beginnings of a new addiction rumbling from within. All of you enablers should be ashamed of yourselves!
But.....um....keep that advise coming!

First off, it's good to rely on others responses (actually...ignore everyone elses except mine...j/k) and to read reviews of the products they recommend, but if you're willing to take the plunge into vinyl then you should do yourself the favor of at least buying a few good quality records in good condition (doesn't have to be 180 gram vinyl but it doesn't hurt) and auditioning some tables yourself. Take advantage of places like audioadvisor.com that offer 30 refunds, that way you can get an idea of different tables in different price classes. I have a music hall MMF-7 which I love (you can get these used, but the price is still about 700, which you can find for new decks if you're enterprising) but will sell at some point to get a VPI Aries 2 (or Scoutmaster...recommendations anyone?). How much you should spend depends on how much you like listening to music, and how much money you're willing to fork over, which really only you can answer. I think the MMF-7 is a good bet because it's good enough that you can put off upgrading immediately, but still leaves room for you to throw your money away on other expensive tables later, which is really what it's all about, right? Actually, even if you're not thinking of becomming an addict, then this is a very satisfying turntable with great sound, and nice looks to boot. I'm sure other (and more knowledgable) members have different recs.

have fun.

rega planar 3 and a dynavector 10x5 cartridge